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Best Non Hall Of Famer 'Peak'

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  • #31
    Dale Murphy had a five year stretch from 83 to 87 where he averaged .290/.383/.537, 147 OPS+, 36 HR, 104 RBI and a gold glove all of those years.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by bas1311 View Post
      Gooden's peak was really quite incredible. But nobody addressed the real center of what I wrote which was about Juan Gonzalez and Don Mattingly. I would take these two peaks over just about anybody not in the hall. Gooden would be a solid 3rd.
      Juan Gonzalez? Which seasons do you have in mind? His position was slugger and I don't see how he was a greater one than Mo Vaughn, not to mention a match for Albert Belle. Every generation has a few players with peak performances as good as Gonzalez and Vaughn, who are not in the Hall of Fame.

      Dwight Gooden put up a great 3-year record but the middle season carried so much of the load that it he is a much better fit for the "greatest season of all time" conversation.

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      • #33
        His "peak" is scattered over a nine-year period, but you can find some terrific seasons in Spud Chandler's career. The odd thing is that he played throughout the war, but was mostly injured during 1944 and 1945, so he hardly took advantage of the second-tier players active during those years.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
          Juan Gonzalez? Which seasons do you have in mind? His position was slugger and I don't see how he was a greater one than Mo Vaughn, not to mention a match for Albert Belle. Every generation has a few players with peak performances as good as Gonzalez and Vaughn, who are not in the Hall of Fame.
          Other poster must be going simply by triple crown stats, by which Juan Gone is incredibly impressive.

          I'm probably going to go with Dick Allen. From '64-'74 Allen was basically Hank Aaron at the plate.

          OPS + by year '64-'74

          Aaron Allen
          153 162
          160 145
          142 181
          168 174
          153 160
          177 165
          148 145
          194 151
          147 199
          177 175 (partial season)
          126 164

          Of course Allen was far less durable, and Aaron was a better all around player.
          THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

          In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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          • #35
            I'm going way back to Smokey Joe Wood. His 1912 season is the stuff of legends (34-5, 344 innings, 1.91 ERA, league-leading 10 shutouts, 5th in MVP voting), and he was huge in 1911 (23 wins in 276 innings and an ERA of 2.02, 3rd in AL) and 1915 (15-5 with league-leading 1.49 ERA).

            He had 4 seasons where his ERA was over 50% better than the park-adjusted league average. That is amazing pitching. Too bad he got injured and finished with only 117 wins.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by bas1311 View Post
              I'm going with Mattingly and to a lesser extent Gooden, but how about Juan Gonzalez. He put together an incredible short career. Although limited by injuries in 3 of his middle seasons, he had 8 years that will rival anyone and probably could make the Hall of Fame on those 8 years alone.
              Juan Gonzalez Peak
              6.82 WARP3 AVG
              131 OPS+
              .280/.328/.540
              1 Top 20 VORP Finish

              Strangely enough, according to BP, Gonzalez's best five year stretch was from 1991-1995, which obviously does not include his two (undeserving) MVP seasons. He had a great year in '93, but nothing really comes close to that throughout the rest of his career. And as you can see, his peak really wasn't anything to get excited about.

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              • #37
                I'll go with Tim Raines 5 year-peak because unlike sluggers, a historic peak by a leadoff man is extremely rare:

                Year Ag Tm .Lg ..G ...AB ..R .. H ..2B ..3B ..HR ..RBI ..SB .CS .BB SO BA ..OBP SLG *OPS+
                1983 23 MON NL 156 615 133 183 32 ..8 ...11 ...71 ..90 14 ..97 70 .298 .393 .429 .129

                1984 24 MON NL 160 622 106 192 38 ..9 ....8 ... 60 ..75 .10 ..87 69 .309 .393 .437 .138

                1985 25 MON NL 150 575 115 184 30 ..13 ..11 ...41 ..70 ..9 ..81 60 .320 .405 .475 .151

                1986 26 MON NL 151 580 91 194 ..35 ..10 ..9 ...62 ...70 ..9 ..78 .60 .334 .413 .476 .145

                1987 27 MON NL 139 530 123 175 34 ..8 ...18 ...68 ...50 ..5 ..90 .52 .330 .429 .526 .149
                Last edited by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan; 08-20-2008, 05:57 PM.

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                • #38
                  Steve Garvey of course.... who never gets credit for his ability to keep players like Ed Goodson, Ted Martinez, and John Hale on the bench because he played every day.

                  You just couldn't find guys with 200 hits and 100 rbi potential just anywhere back then.
                  Your Second Base Coach
                  Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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                  • #39
                    By Position:

                    C - Ted Simmons
                    1B - Dick Allen (probably best peak)
                    2B - Bobby Grich
                    3B - Ron Santo
                    SS - Jim Fregosi
                    LF - Tim Raines
                    CF - Dale Murphy
                    RF - Dave Parker
                    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                    - Alvin Dark

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                      By Position:

                      C - Ted Simmons
                      1B - Dick Allen (probably best peak)
                      2B - Bobby Grich
                      3B - Ron Santo
                      SS - Jim Fregosi
                      LF - Tim Raines
                      CF - Dale Murphy
                      RF - Dave Parker
                      Simmons over Torre? I fail to see it.

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                      • #41
                        Torre had that one amazing MVP season where he hit .363 with a .421 OBP, but it was kind of a fluke. His next highest BA and OBP were .325 and .398 respectively.

                        I don't know, I guess his peak is still better than Ted Simmons.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MVP31 View Post
                          Simmons over Torre? I fail to see it.
                          If for catcher only, I like Simmons myself. Overall, Torre.
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                          • #43
                            I'm going to say Dick Allen. Like someone else said, he wasn't far behind Aaron and Mays as a hitter.

                            Albert Belle blows Juan Gonzalez out of the water. Triple Crown stats (especially RBIs) overrate Gonzalez considerably. Gonzalez is much more comparable to Mo Vaughn than Albert Belle.

                            Nomar is another good choice. His HOF chances aren't looking too good right now, but he was clearly Derek Jeter's superior when they were both young.

                            Another guy that I don't think has been mentioned is Tony Oliva. He put up great numbers from 1964-71, which was a very tough era for hitters to do that.

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                            • #44
                              Al Rosen!

                              Black Ink: Batting - 23 (85) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
                              Gray Ink: Batting - 97 (229) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
                              HOF Standards: Batting - 28.5 (311) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
                              HOF Monitor: Batting - 82.5 (208) (Likely HOFer > 100)
                              Overall Rank in parentheses.

                              Al Rosen posted a .705 average Offensive Winning Percentage over his best 5 years (1950-54). His best 5 years are a clear-cut HOF peak. I've argued for him in the past; he's the closest thing to Dizzy Dean amongst position players.
                              "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                              NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by MVP31 View Post
                                Simmons over Torre? I fail to see it.
                                Consecutive years, I mean. If I went non-consecutive, some players would probably change.
                                "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                                - Alvin Dark

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