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Best Non Hall Of Famer 'Peak'

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  • Death to Crawling Things
    replied
    Originally posted by Westlake View Post
    A) Because Santo was a good 3rd baseman and not a mediocre outfielder like Belle.

    B) We were building teams, therefore good 3Bs are going to be harder to come by than corner outfielders.

    C) Williams had a good 4 year peak (though still not as good as Santo's), but he didn't have 5 really good consecutive years.

    Possible D) Santo's years came fairly near a year called 1968.

    Leave a comment:


  • Otis Nixon's Bodyguard
    replied
    Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    Al Rosen!

    Black Ink: Batting - 23 (85) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
    Gray Ink: Batting - 97 (229) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
    HOF Standards: Batting - 28.5 (311) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
    HOF Monitor: Batting - 82.5 (208) (Likely HOFer > 100)
    Overall Rank in parentheses.

    Al Rosen posted a .705 average Offensive Winning Percentage over his best 5 years (1950-54). His best 5 years are a clear-cut HOF peak. I've argued for him in the past; he's the closest thing to Dizzy Dean amongst position players.
    You act as if we are missing something obvious. I fail to see how Rosen's peak was better than Dick Allen's or Albert Belle's. Dick Allen played nine consecutive full seasons (at least 502 plate appearances) without dropping below a 145 OPS+ in any season. His career OPS+ of 156 is one point higher than Hank Aaron's.

    Dick Allen
    Black Ink - 27
    Gray Ink - 159
    HOF Standards - 38.7
    HOF Monitor - 99

    Albert Belle
    Blank Ink - 28
    Gray Ink - 137
    HOF Standards - 36.3
    HOF Monitor - 133.5

    Leave a comment:


  • MVP31
    replied
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    Consecutive years, I mean. If I went non-consecutive, some players would probably change.
    Yeah, I still have Torre edging out Simmons over a 5-year peak. Although I'm basing it primarily on VORP and WARP placements.

    Leave a comment:


  • AstrosFan
    replied
    Originally posted by MVP31 View Post
    Simmons over Torre? I fail to see it.
    Consecutive years, I mean. If I went non-consecutive, some players would probably change.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fuzzy Bear
    replied
    Al Rosen!

    Black Ink: Batting - 23 (85) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
    Gray Ink: Batting - 97 (229) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
    HOF Standards: Batting - 28.5 (311) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
    HOF Monitor: Batting - 82.5 (208) (Likely HOFer > 100)
    Overall Rank in parentheses.

    Al Rosen posted a .705 average Offensive Winning Percentage over his best 5 years (1950-54). His best 5 years are a clear-cut HOF peak. I've argued for him in the past; he's the closest thing to Dizzy Dean amongst position players.

    Leave a comment:


  • Otis Nixon's Bodyguard
    replied
    I'm going to say Dick Allen. Like someone else said, he wasn't far behind Aaron and Mays as a hitter.

    Albert Belle blows Juan Gonzalez out of the water. Triple Crown stats (especially RBIs) overrate Gonzalez considerably. Gonzalez is much more comparable to Mo Vaughn than Albert Belle.

    Nomar is another good choice. His HOF chances aren't looking too good right now, but he was clearly Derek Jeter's superior when they were both young.

    Another guy that I don't think has been mentioned is Tony Oliva. He put up great numbers from 1964-71, which was a very tough era for hitters to do that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by MVP31 View Post
    Simmons over Torre? I fail to see it.
    If for catcher only, I like Simmons myself. Overall, Torre.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90
    replied
    Torre had that one amazing MVP season where he hit .363 with a .421 OBP, but it was kind of a fluke. His next highest BA and OBP were .325 and .398 respectively.

    I don't know, I guess his peak is still better than Ted Simmons.

    Leave a comment:


  • MVP31
    replied
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    By Position:

    C - Ted Simmons
    1B - Dick Allen (probably best peak)
    2B - Bobby Grich
    3B - Ron Santo
    SS - Jim Fregosi
    LF - Tim Raines
    CF - Dale Murphy
    RF - Dave Parker
    Simmons over Torre? I fail to see it.

    Leave a comment:


  • AstrosFan
    replied
    By Position:

    C - Ted Simmons
    1B - Dick Allen (probably best peak)
    2B - Bobby Grich
    3B - Ron Santo
    SS - Jim Fregosi
    LF - Tim Raines
    CF - Dale Murphy
    RF - Dave Parker

    Leave a comment:


  • Second Base Coach
    replied
    Steve Garvey of course.... who never gets credit for his ability to keep players like Ed Goodson, Ted Martinez, and John Hale on the bench because he played every day.

    You just couldn't find guys with 200 hits and 100 rbi potential just anywhere back then.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan
    replied
    I'll go with Tim Raines 5 year-peak because unlike sluggers, a historic peak by a leadoff man is extremely rare:

    Year Ag Tm .Lg ..G ...AB ..R .. H ..2B ..3B ..HR ..RBI ..SB .CS .BB SO BA ..OBP SLG *OPS+
    1983 23 MON NL 156 615 133 183 32 ..8 ...11 ...71 ..90 14 ..97 70 .298 .393 .429 .129

    1984 24 MON NL 160 622 106 192 38 ..9 ....8 ... 60 ..75 .10 ..87 69 .309 .393 .437 .138

    1985 25 MON NL 150 575 115 184 30 ..13 ..11 ...41 ..70 ..9 ..81 60 .320 .405 .475 .151

    1986 26 MON NL 151 580 91 194 ..35 ..10 ..9 ...62 ...70 ..9 ..78 .60 .334 .413 .476 .145

    1987 27 MON NL 139 530 123 175 34 ..8 ...18 ...68 ...50 ..5 ..90 .52 .330 .429 .526 .149
    Last edited by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan; 08-20-2008, 05:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MVP31
    replied
    Originally posted by bas1311 View Post
    I'm going with Mattingly and to a lesser extent Gooden, but how about Juan Gonzalez. He put together an incredible short career. Although limited by injuries in 3 of his middle seasons, he had 8 years that will rival anyone and probably could make the Hall of Fame on those 8 years alone.
    Juan Gonzalez Peak
    6.82 WARP3 AVG
    131 OPS+
    .280/.328/.540
    1 Top 20 VORP Finish

    Strangely enough, according to BP, Gonzalez's best five year stretch was from 1991-1995, which obviously does not include his two (undeserving) MVP seasons. He had a great year in '93, but nothing really comes close to that throughout the rest of his career. And as you can see, his peak really wasn't anything to get excited about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90
    replied
    I'm going way back to Smokey Joe Wood. His 1912 season is the stuff of legends (34-5, 344 innings, 1.91 ERA, league-leading 10 shutouts, 5th in MVP voting), and he was huge in 1911 (23 wins in 276 innings and an ERA of 2.02, 3rd in AL) and 1915 (15-5 with league-leading 1.49 ERA).

    He had 4 seasons where his ERA was over 50% better than the park-adjusted league average. That is amazing pitching. Too bad he got injured and finished with only 117 wins.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    Juan Gonzalez? Which seasons do you have in mind? His position was slugger and I don't see how he was a greater one than Mo Vaughn, not to mention a match for Albert Belle. Every generation has a few players with peak performances as good as Gonzalez and Vaughn, who are not in the Hall of Fame.
    Other poster must be going simply by triple crown stats, by which Juan Gone is incredibly impressive.

    I'm probably going to go with Dick Allen. From '64-'74 Allen was basically Hank Aaron at the plate.

    OPS + by year '64-'74

    Aaron Allen
    153 162
    160 145
    142 181
    168 174
    153 160
    177 165
    148 145
    194 151
    147 199
    177 175 (partial season)
    126 164

    Of course Allen was far less durable, and Aaron was a better all around player.

    Leave a comment:

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