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The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 2 – 1870’s/80’s

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  • The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 2 – 1870’s/80’s

    Welcome to The Ultimate Quest for Candidates – Round 2. This thread will have the sixth poll in the second round, combining the leading players from the polls for the 1860's/70's and the 1880's. Refer to the earlier threads for discussion and links to biographies.

    There will be 15 players on the ballot. You will be asked to vote for 5 (FIVE) players. These 13 players automatically advanced to this round by their top finishes in the Round 1 polls:

    100% Ross Barnes
    100% Deacon White
    93.3% Joe Start
    73.3% Cal McVey
    73.3% Ezra Sutton
    65.2% Tony Mullane
    65.2% Paul Hines
    65.2% Harry Stovey
    61.6% Bob Caruthers
    60.9% Pete Browning
    60.0% Dickey Pearce
    47.8% Charlie Bennett
    47.8% Jack Glasscock

    We need to decide who will get the other two spots on the ballot. There are 8 runners-up who are under consideration:

    46.7% Lip Pike
    39.1% George Gore
    26.1% Jim McCormick
    26.1% Tip O'Neill
    26.1% Hardy Richardson
    21.7% Charley Jones
    20.0% Bobby Mathews
    13.3% Tommy Bond

    My personal picks are Gore and Richardson. Your input on this issue is strongly requested as we look to develop a consensus.

    Below are the players we voted as the top 21 HOF candidates whose careers centered in the 1870’s and 1880’s.
    Code:
    Pos	BJ	 Player Name	 WS/Career	 WARP3
    4	---	Ross	Barnes	1868-81  	(71.9: 14.9-12.0-11.8)
    2	#49	Charlie	Bennett	(157: 19-18-15)	(79.3: 10.1-9.9-9.6)
    8/7	#38	Pete   Browning	(225: 30-28-23)	(63.7: 9.3-8.5-7.9)
    1	#88	Bob   Caruthers	(337: 57-54-51)	(62.3: 12.0-11.5-9.4)
    6	#43	Jack  Glasscock	(261: 27-25-22)	(101.9: 10.1-10.0-9.8)
    8	#53	Paul	Hines	(249: 28-22-19)	(105.3: 11.8-10.3-8.9)
    2/3	---	Cal	McVey	1869-79  	(53.6: 10.7-9.5-6.1)
    1	#82	Tony	Mullane	(399: 58-55-46)	(46.3: 7.1-6.5-6.3)
    6	---	Dickey	Pearce	1856-77	
    3	#107	Joe	Start	1862-86  	(67.5: 7.1-6.5-6.3)
    7/3	#39	Harry	Stovey	(265: 28-28-26)	(76.6: 9.4-9.2-8.3)
    5	#98	Ezra	Sutton	1870-88  	(77.7: 9.1-8.3-7.1)
    5/2	#76	Deacon	White	1869-90  	(110.1: 10.6-10.1-9.6)
    at-large candidates					
    1	#97	Tommy	Bond	1874-84  	(26.7: 10.6-6.7-6.0)
    8	#40	George	Gore	(250: 30-26-24)	(91.9: 11.7-9.5-8.8)
    7	#67	Charley	Jones	(161: 27-24-21)	(62.7: 11.1-8.4-7.7)
    1	---	Bobby	Mathews	1869-87  	(18.7: 7.9-6.2-3.2)
    1	---	Jim   McCormick	(334: 54-53-42)	(43.8: 10.3-7.4-6.4)
    7	#48	Tip	O'Neill	(213: 36-28-27)	(41.7: 9.3-8.0-7.5)
    8/4	---	Lip	Pike	1866-78  	(51.1: 11.8-10.3-7.4)
    4/7	#39	Hardy Richardson(230: 32-25-23)	(86.3: 11.7-8.7-8.6)
    Pos – primary position(s)
    BJ – rank at his position in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2001)
    Win Shares – shown are career total and best 3 years
    WARP3 – from Baseball Prospectus; shown are career total and best 3 years
    Other –

    Some other things to be aware of:
    1) Bill James’ rankings emphasize players’ peak years; this results in long steady careers being rated lower than what may seem right.
    2) Win shares are “raw”, straight from the book. I have made no adjustments for season length, league quality, missed seasons or anything.
    3) You should look to credit these players with minor league or pre-professional play. I have not systematically attempted this.
    4) The latest WARP revision sharply reduced most of these candidate’s numbers from the previous polls' charts.

    That leaves 15 players that dropped out of consideration after Round 1: Charlie Buffinton, John Clapp, Jim Creighton, Fred Dunlap, Bob Ferguson, Davy Force, Dave Foutz, Silver King, Dick McBride, Levi Meyerle, John Peters, Al Reach, Jim Whitney, Ned Williamson, and Tom York. Each of these candidates drew less than 10% support.
    80
    Ross Barnes
    13.75%
    11
    Charlie Bennett
    6.25%
    5
    Pete Browning
    6.25%
    5
    Bob Caruthers
    7.50%
    6
    Jack Glasscock
    2.50%
    2
    George Gore
    6.25%
    5
    Paul Hines
    11.25%
    9
    Cal McVey
    1.25%
    1
    Tony Mullane
    6.25%
    5
    Dickey Pearce
    5.00%
    4
    Hardy Richardson
    0.00%
    0
    Joe Start
    8.75%
    7
    Harry Stovey
    7.50%
    6
    Ezra Sutton
    1.25%
    1
    Deacon White
    16.25%
    13

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Freakshow; 05-20-2008, 01:05 PM.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    Lip Pike would be my top choice and someone I may even vote for in the next round if he makes it. As far as a second guy, Richardson and Gore are both guys I support for the HOF, but I'd give the edge to Gore over Richardson.

    Comment


    • #3
      I support Gore and Richardson for the Hall of the also-rans, so they would be my choices to continue.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #4
        --Gore I support. Pike, Richardson and Jones are all maybes for me, so any of them would be okay.

        Comment


        • #5
          Pike will likely get my vote. Gore and O'Neill would be the other two I'd put up for consideration.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by jalbright View Post
            I support Gore and Richardson for the Hall of the also-rans, so they would be my choices to continue.
            Agreed. And since Gore was mentioned in every post and Richardson in all but one...
            1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

            1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
            1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
            1966 1974 1977 1978


            1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
            2013 2014


            1996 2006

            Comment


            • #7
              Paul Hines deserves your vote, and needs it

              65% support for Paul Hines in round one?!
              Let me begin by quoting AG and myself from late in that thread.

              AG2004
              >>
              I came up with adjusted win shares comparisons for the six outfielders on the list, as well as for King Kelly and Jim O'Rourke. I adjusted the players' win share measures to 140 games for seasons up to and including 1889, and 154 games for seasons from 1890 onwards.
              . . .
              MVP-candidate-type seasons (30+ adjusted win shares)
              5 - Paul Hines

              3 - Jim O'Rourke, George Gore, Pete Browning
              2 - King Kelly, Charley Jones
              1 - Harry Stovey, Tip O'Neill
              <<

              Paul Wendt
              >>
              Along the same lines,
              Paul Hines earns three win shares MVPs: 1878, 1879, 1884.
              Dan Brouthers (4) is the only other player with more than two win shares MVPs until Honus Wagner, ie 1876-190?. That covers NL, AA, UA, PL but Brouthers is the only winner in two leagues, iirc.
              <<
              (Ross Barnes may have earned three during 1871-1876. As far as I know, no one has calculated Win Shares for 1871-1875.)

              Comment


              • #8
                I voted for Bennett, Gore, and Richardson in round one. I'm cheered that Bennett is in on a recount and that the tide for Gore is overwhelming.

                Richardson was a close call in round one and he's a close call here over Pike and Jones.

                Richardson was one of the best players in the International Association for one season before arriving in the NL (with the Buffalo club although he didn't play for them in the IA). He won a NYClipper)?) citation as best centerfielder.

                Pike was one of the best players there for one season after leaving the NL.

                Jones went to court for his 1880 salary, won, and purchased a laundromat in Cincinnati where he lived and played semi-pro during the two full seasons he was on the blacklist.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Hall of Merit ran a survey a couple months back to determine the pecking order for the new Veterans Committee vote on oldtime players (debuted before 1943). Players need to be active in ten seasons from 1876-on, so guys like Pike, McVey and Barnes were not included. These are the results:
                  Code:
                  Player		 PTS
                  Bill	Dahlen	 461
                  Deacon	White	 454
                  Paul	Hines	 431
                  Jack Glasscock	 363
                  George	Gore	 331
                  Joe	Start	 299
                  Ezra	Sutton	 294
                  Heinie	Groh	 265
                  Hardy Richardson 244
                  Bob Caruthers	 224
                  Charlie	Bennett	 223
                  Sherry	Magee	 216
                  Stan	Hack	 214
                  Joe	Gordon	 206
                  Jimmy Sheckard	 190
                  Charlie	Keller	 183
                  Harry	Stovey	 164
                  Cupid	Childs	 158
                  Wes	Ferrell	 156
                  Charley	Jones	 126
                  Pete Browning	 111
                  
                  Ballots	Cast:	  23
                  Gore and Richardson would be the HOM at-large choices for our purposes. We also see that for the 1910/20/30/40s poll they would favor Groh, Magee, Hack and Gordon, in that order.

                  Pike has an argument, of course. The HOM ran another poll recently for members of that Hall who are not currently being considered for election by Cooperstown. Here are the results of that survey:
                  Code:
                  RK	Player	        PTS
                  1	Pete Rose	222
                  2	HomeRun Johnson	183
                  3	Ross Barnes	178
                  4	Joe Jackson	160
                  5	Cal McVey	140
                  6	John Beckwith	136
                  7	Dickie Pearce	108
                  8	Dobie Moore	 84
                  9	Quincey Trouppe	 76
                  10	Lip Pike	 75
                  11	Dick Lundy	 72
                  12	Alejandro Oms	 48
                  
                  Ballots	Cast: 19
                  Pike didn't fare too well, but that's a tough field.
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    HR Johnson and Ross Barnes finished ahead of Jackson?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Erik Bedard View Post
                      HR Johnson and Ross Barnes finished ahead of Jackson?
                      Interesting, eh? I think this is the gist of it: Jackson tends to be overrated due to his notoriety.

                      Compared to Johnson, Jackson's career is half as long; his peak doesn't make up for it. Compared to Barnes, career length is similar, but Jackson was not nearly as dominant in his era. The HOM doesn't timeline like BJ. Nobody is giving Jackson any extra credit for "what he might have done if".
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree that he's overrated due to the whole scandal, but that doesn't change the fact that 1911-13 is clearly a HoF-worthy peak. During that timeframe, he was among the three best players in the game (Cobb and Speaker being the other two). If you're not giving him any credit for post-1920, I can see Barnes ahead of him, but I'm not sure about Johnson. I guess if you like the long careers, but Jackson's three-year peak compares pretty favorably with that of guys like Yastrzemski, DiMaggio, and several other HoFers. But enough of this discussion, this is about the 1870's and 80's.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                          We need to decide who will get the other two spots on the ballot. There are 8 runners-up who are under consideration:
                          I'll nominate McCormick and O'Neill.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I didn't realize it was just two spots. Pike and Gore will be my nominees, then.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Gore and Mathews for me.
                              "It's good to be young and a Giant." - Larry Doyle

                              Comment

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