SOC: Secondbase Poll Restart

[leecemark]

SOC: Best Secondbasemen Outside Cooperstown

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--The Suburbs of Cooperstown positional discussion series continues with a review of the best eligible secondbasemen. We drafted 10 teams of players each - hoping to identify the best 200 players elible for, but not inducted, in the Hall of Fame. This thread will discuss the secondbasemen drafted and try and determine which of them merit serious discussion for Cooperstown. A poll will be added later, but for now please discuss the relative merits of these players. Are any of them a glaring ommisssion? Which of them do you support? Which do you think at least merit further discussion? Which are better than the least deservign Hal of Famers - identified by us as Bill Mazeroski and Red Schoendienst.
--The ten starting 2B; Bobby Grich, Ross Barnes, Larry Doyle, Lou Whitaker, Buddy Myer, Cupid Childs, Del Pratt, Joe Gordon, Hardy Richardson and Willie Randolph. Others selected; Gil McDougald, Kid Gleason, Fred Dunlap, Dick McAuliffe, Bill Monroe, Davey Lopes and Tony Phillips.

[leecemark]

Glaring Omissions
--I don't really see any and don't think there are very many such at any position. The closest thing to one for me would be Ross Barnes. Barnes was the best player in baseball for a period of several years (even over a 5-6 year period) and that has normally been enough to get a player inudcted. In Barnes case that was mostly National Association play which isn't quite the same as "real" MLB, but it is stil lplenty for me. If the Coop is truely interested in showing the entire history of baseball then Barnes may actually deserve the "glaring ommission" label.

Fully support
Bobby Grich
Lou Whitaker
Joe Gordon
Larry Doyle

Deserve consideration
Cupid Childs
Hardy Richardson
Bill Monroe

Not quite worthy, but better than Maz
Buddy Myer
Willie Randolph
Dick McAuliffe
Davey Lopes

[dgarza]

Should Be In The Hall
1. Ross Barnes
2. Larry Doyle
3. Joe Gordon
4. Hardy Richardson

Worthy Of Consideration
Red Schoendienst - HOFer
5. Cupid Childs
6. Del Pratt
Bid McPhee - HOFer
7. Fred Dunlap
8. Lou Whitaker
9. Buddy Myer
Chuck Knoblauch - not drafted
Danny Murphy - not drafted
10. Willie Randolph
Jimmy Williams - not drafted
11. Bobby Grich
Steve Sax - not drafted
Jim Gilliam - not drafted
George Grantham - not drafted

Not Worthy Of Consideration
Marty McMaus - not drafted
12. Tony Phillips
Bobby Avila - not drafted
Miller Huggins - HOFer
Billy Goodman - not drafted
13. Davey Lopes
14. Gil McDougald
Juan Samuel - not drafted
Eddie Stanky - not drafted
Fred Pfeffer - not drafted
Bobby Richardson - not drafted
Johnny Evers - HOFer
Johnny Temple - not drafted
Dave Cash - not drafted
Max Bishop - not drafted
Frank White - not drafted
Lonny Frey - not drafted
Davey Johnson - not drafted
15. Dick McAuliffe
Tony Cuccinello - not drafted
Bill Mazeroski - HOFer
Bucky Harris - HOFer
16. Kid Gleason

Bill Monroe - no informed opinion

[jjpm74]

Gray area HOFers:

Ross Barnes
Joe Gordon
Bobby Grich
Cupid Childs
Hardy Richardson
Larry Doyle
Lou Whitaker
Bill Mazeroski
--------------HOF Line--------------
On the bubble:

Bill Monroe
Willie Randolph

Good but not quite there:

Buddy Myers
Red Schoendeinst

Not even close:

Gil McDougald
Del Pratt
Dick McAuliffe
Tony Phillips
Fred Dunlap
Davey Lopes
Kid Gleason

[Paul Wendt]

At first I thought this was a restart for the poll only but it will entirely replace the old Secondbase thread.
"--The restarted thread with corrected poll is up. If you want to preserve any of your post in this thread, please copy them over. This one will be deleted tomorrow."

==== copied from the old thread and revised ====

Mark,
Are you ranking Schoendienst below Mazeroski and the lowest group you have listed? Why?
Or did you overlook him?

If we asked about the two weakest Hall of Fame members by fielding position, a score of respondents would probably name several different secondbasemen rather than only a few. (One reason for a difference from other infield positions is that Frank Frisch played 2B himself, so we don't start the conversation with a George Kelly at second.) I am not sure that either Maz or Red would have majority "support".

Mazeroski, Schoendienst, Evers, Lazzeri, McPhee, Fox, and Grant all have detractors. That corresponds roughly to the situation at catcher if Kling, Schang, and Freehan were all in Cooperstown, or two of them along with Bob Boone to represent longevity.

--
Compare these 2Bmen drafted into the suburbs (17) with those on the Ultimate Quest ballots, round one (19)?

In the Suburbs, not in Ultimate Quest round one
Bill Monroe - black, not eligible for UQ
Davey Lopes

Ultimate Quest round one, not in the Suburbs
Al Reach - 1860s star player with a strong contributor portfolio
Jimmy Williams
Lonnie Frey
Jim Gilliam

(I think Gilliam belongs with the bottom third of players listed here, and he is a better conversation piece because of uncertainty and ignorance about his early career.)

HOF managers Miller Huggins and Bucky Harris were mentioned by those two projects, as I recall; certainly they were neither nominated nor selected. Huggins was a very good player. The detractors of Johnny Evers essentially say that he was only Miller Huggins.

[jalbright]

In no particular order within a category:

support
Bobby Grich
Larry Doyle
Lou Whitaker
Cupid Childs
Joe Gordon
Hardy Richardson

not enough info
Bill Monroe--may be good enough and at least deserves discussion

What do I do with a 2B/P?
Kid Gleason--I don't think so, but that odd combination makes him tough to decide on. For that reason alone, worthy of at least discussion.

worthy of discussion, but not quite there for me
Ross Barnes (the best of this group)
Del Pratt
Red Schoendienst
Willie Randolph
Gil McDougald (his versatility at least entitles him to discussion)
Bill Mazeroski (his defensive excellence entitles him to discussion)

Not in my book
Fred Dunlap
Dave Lopes
Tony Phillips

[Paul Wendt]

(new)

As I told leecemark privately last month, I feel able to do group rankings only. Whitespace and header phrases separate the groups. There are eleven plus some HOFers in the first four groups. What Jim Albright says just above, "In no particular order within a category"

shameful oversight (should be in a Hall of Fame half this size)
Grich

among the top 20 eligible players who should be in (on a Veterans Committee, I would argue for them)
Barnes
Gordon

high consideration, probably not in that top 20 (on a Veterans Committee, I would vote for them)
Richardson
Whitaker
Childs
Monroe - some more primary research would be invaluable

medium consideration (on a Historical Overview Committee, I would nominate them)
Doyle
Dunlap
Myer
Randolph
: Schoendienst
: Lazzeri - although no one asked me
-------- (I missed one in the poll but never mind.)

low consideration
Lopes
McDougald
Pratt
: Mazeroski

no consideration (there are HOF members here, but no primary secondbasemen)
Gleason
McAuliffe
Phillips

At the moment I feel that
If they were on the outside I might put Schoendienst and Lazzeri in the next group below. If I had the authority to make multiple one-for-one replacements I would put them in the next group above; that, is replace them only by Grich, Barnes, or Gordon.

[Paul Wendt]

-------- (I missed one in the poll but never mind.)

low consideration
Lopes
McDougald
Pratt
Mazeroski

Rereading, I'm not sure whether I should have voted for this group too. When I have a little time I'm quite open to giving consideration to retired baseball stars. Sometimes I go down this low when I don't have the time.

[1905 Giants]

I'll take Gordon.

[leecemark]

I'll take Gordon.

--This poll is not for you to pick who you think most deserving. You are supposed to voter for all you think deserve consideration. Let me know who else fits that criteria for you, please, and I'll add them.

[1905 Giants]

--This poll is not for you to pick who you think most deserving. You are supposed to voter for all you think deserve consideration. Let me know who else fits that criteria for you, please, and I'll add them.

I stand by my decision even with that criteria.

[leecemark]

I stand by my decision even with that criteria.

--Unfortunately that subverts the intent of this thread. I'll have to make adjustments for your ballot as it stands. This is a preliminary round of voting and I'd hate to see somebody come up short of moving to the next round (all who get 50% support as "worthy of consideration" go to the next round which will be "which of these do you support for Cooperstown") because you choose not to follow the voting guidelines.

[The Dude]

Support
Joe Gordon
Bobby Grich
Lou Whitaker
Willie Randolph
Frank White

Better Than Nellie Fox, Billy Herman, Maz, Lazzeri, and Schoendienst
Joe Gordon
Bobby Grich

Better than Herman, Maz, Lazzeri, and Schoendienst
Lou Whitaker

Better than Lazzeri and Schoendienst
Willie Randolph

Not Listed
Frank White


I must have missed the original balloting or something, or I would have supported White.

Player:             RAA2       RF     FPCT    
Frank White         145       .48      .04
Bill Mazeroski      203       .86      .07
Bobby Grich          94       .74      .05


RF and FPCT are above the league average

White
-5 All-Star Games
-8 Gold Gloves

Mazeroski
-7 All-Star Games
-8 Gold Gloves

Grich
-6 All-Star Games (5 at 2B)
-4 Gold Gloves


Grich won those four from 1973-1976, then Frank White won from 1977-1982, and two more later in the 1980's. Obviously the voters saw something in White's defense that was better than Grich's.

For playing in what is the best era of baseball for competitiveness (70's & 80's), White shines above Grich defensively for me.

[leecemark]

--Grich hurt his back carry an air conditioner the year he signed with the Angels. He was an awesome defender for the Orioles, but never at that level again after the injury. As a hitter he dwarves White or Mazeroski though.

[The Dude]

--Grich hurt his back carry an air conditioner the year he signed with the Angels. He was an awesome defender for the Orioles, but never at that level again after the injury. As a hitter he dwarves White or Mazeroski though.

Agreed, which is why I support Grich far above supporting White. White deserves my support as well.