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  • SOC: Secondbase Poll Restart

    SOC: Best Secondbasemen Outside Cooperstown

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    --The Suburbs of Cooperstown positional discussion series continues with a review of the best eligible secondbasemen. We drafted 10 teams of players each - hoping to identify the best 200 players elible for, but not inducted, in the Hall of Fame. This thread will discuss the secondbasemen drafted and try and determine which of them merit serious discussion for Cooperstown. A poll will be added later, but for now please discuss the relative merits of these players. Are any of them a glaring ommisssion? Which of them do you support? Which do you think at least merit further discussion? Which are better than the least deservign Hal of Famers - identified by us as Bill Mazeroski and Red Schoendienst.
    --The ten starting 2B; Bobby Grich, Ross Barnes, Larry Doyle, Lou Whitaker, Buddy Myer, Cupid Childs, Del Pratt, Joe Gordon, Hardy Richardson and Willie Randolph. Others selected; Gil McDougald, Kid Gleason, Fred Dunlap, Dick McAuliffe, Bill Monroe, Davey Lopes and Tony Phillips.
    114
    Bobby Grich
    15.79%
    18
    Joe Gordon
    16.67%
    19
    Larry Doyle
    10.53%
    12
    Lou Whitaker
    17.54%
    20
    Ross Barnes
    9.65%
    11
    Davey Lopes
    1.75%
    2
    Fred Dunlap
    0.88%
    1
    Hardy Richardson
    6.14%
    7
    Gil McDougald
    0.88%
    1
    Cupid Childs
    7.02%
    8
    Willie Randolph
    5.26%
    6
    Del Pratt
    1.75%
    2
    Tony Phillips
    0.00%
    0
    Bill Monroe
    2.63%
    3
    Dick McAuliffe
    0.88%
    1
    Buddy Myer
    1.75%
    2
    Kid Gleason
    0.88%
    1

    The poll is expired.


  • #2
    Glaring Omissions
    --I don't really see any and don't think there are very many such at any position. The closest thing to one for me would be Ross Barnes. Barnes was the best player in baseball for a period of several years (even over a 5-6 year period) and that has normally been enough to get a player inudcted. In Barnes case that was mostly National Association play which isn't quite the same as "real" MLB, but it is stil lplenty for me. If the Coop is truely interested in showing the entire history of baseball then Barnes may actually deserve the "glaring ommission" label.

    Fully support
    Bobby Grich
    Lou Whitaker
    Joe Gordon
    Larry Doyle

    Deserve consideration
    Cupid Childs
    Hardy Richardson
    Bill Monroe

    Not quite worthy, but better than Maz
    Buddy Myer
    Willie Randolph
    Dick McAuliffe
    Davey Lopes

    Comment


    • #3
      Should Be In The Hall
      1. Ross Barnes
      2. Larry Doyle
      3. Joe Gordon
      4. Hardy Richardson

      Worthy Of Consideration
      Red Schoendienst - HOFer
      5. Cupid Childs
      6. Del Pratt
      Bid McPhee - HOFer
      7. Fred Dunlap
      8. Lou Whitaker
      9. Buddy Myer
      Chuck Knoblauch - not drafted
      Danny Murphy - not drafted
      10. Willie Randolph
      Jimmy Williams - not drafted
      11. Bobby Grich
      Steve Sax - not drafted
      Jim Gilliam - not drafted
      George Grantham - not drafted

      Not Worthy Of Consideration
      Marty McMaus - not drafted
      12. Tony Phillips
      Bobby Avila - not drafted
      Miller Huggins - HOFer
      Billy Goodman - not drafted
      13. Davey Lopes
      14. Gil McDougald
      Juan Samuel - not drafted
      Eddie Stanky - not drafted
      Fred Pfeffer - not drafted
      Bobby Richardson - not drafted
      Johnny Evers - HOFer
      Johnny Temple - not drafted
      Dave Cash - not drafted
      Max Bishop - not drafted
      Frank White - not drafted
      Lonny Frey - not drafted
      Davey Johnson - not drafted
      15. Dick McAuliffe
      Tony Cuccinello - not drafted
      Bill Mazeroski - HOFer
      Bucky Harris - HOFer
      16. Kid Gleason

      Bill Monroe - no informed opinion
      Last edited by dgarza; 05-10-2008, 06:03 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Gray area HOFers:

        Ross Barnes
        Joe Gordon
        Bobby Grich
        Cupid Childs
        Hardy Richardson
        Larry Doyle
        Lou Whitaker
        Bill Mazeroski
        --------------HOF Line--------------
        On the bubble:

        Bill Monroe
        Willie Randolph

        Good but not quite there:

        Buddy Myers
        Red Schoendeinst

        Not even close:

        Gil McDougald
        Del Pratt
        Dick McAuliffe
        Tony Phillips
        Fred Dunlap
        Davey Lopes
        Kid Gleason

        Comment


        • #5
          At first I thought this was a restart for the poll only but it will entirely replace the old Secondbase thread.
          "--The restarted thread with corrected poll is up. If you want to preserve any of your post in this thread, please copy them over. This one will be deleted tomorrow."

          ==== copied from the old thread and revised ====

          Mark,
          Are you ranking Schoendienst below Mazeroski and the lowest group you have listed? Why?
          Or did you overlook him?

          If we asked about the two weakest Hall of Fame members by fielding position, a score of respondents would probably name several different secondbasemen rather than only a few. (One reason for a difference from other infield positions is that Frank Frisch played 2B himself, so we don't start the conversation with a George Kelly at second.) I am not sure that either Maz or Red would have majority "support".

          Mazeroski, Schoendienst, Evers, Lazzeri, McPhee, Fox, and Grant all have detractors. That corresponds roughly to the situation at catcher if Kling, Schang, and Freehan were all in Cooperstown, or two of them along with Bob Boone to represent longevity.

          --
          Compare these 2Bmen drafted into the suburbs (17) with those on the Ultimate Quest ballots, round one (19)?

          In the Suburbs, not in Ultimate Quest round one
          Bill Monroe - black, not eligible for UQ
          Davey Lopes

          Ultimate Quest round one, not in the Suburbs
          Al Reach - 1860s star player with a strong contributor portfolio
          Jimmy Williams
          Lonnie Frey
          Jim Gilliam

          (I think Gilliam belongs with the bottom third of players listed here, and he is a better conversation piece because of uncertainty and ignorance about his early career.)

          HOF managers Miller Huggins and Bucky Harris were mentioned by those two projects, as I recall; certainly they were neither nominated nor selected. Huggins was a very good player. The detractors of Johnny Evers essentially say that he was only Miller Huggins.

          Comment


          • #6
            In no particular order within a category:

            support
            Bobby Grich
            Larry Doyle
            Lou Whitaker
            Cupid Childs
            Joe Gordon
            Hardy Richardson

            not enough info
            Bill Monroe--may be good enough and at least deserves discussion

            What do I do with a 2B/P?
            Kid Gleason--I don't think so, but that odd combination makes him tough to decide on. For that reason alone, worthy of at least discussion.

            worthy of discussion, but not quite there for me
            Ross Barnes (the best of this group)
            Del Pratt
            Red Schoendienst
            Willie Randolph
            Gil McDougald (his versatility at least entitles him to discussion)
            Bill Mazeroski (his defensive excellence entitles him to discussion)

            Not in my book
            Fred Dunlap
            Dave Lopes
            Tony Phillips
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • #7
              (new)

              As I told leecemark privately last month, I feel able to do group rankings only. Whitespace and header phrases separate the groups. There are eleven plus some HOFers in the first four groups. What Jim Albright says just above, "In no particular order within a category"

              shameful oversight (should be in a Hall of Fame half this size)
              Grich

              among the top 20 eligible players who should be in (on a Veterans Committee, I would argue for them)
              Barnes
              Gordon

              high consideration, probably not in that top 20 (on a Veterans Committee, I would vote for them)
              Richardson
              Whitaker
              Childs
              Monroe - some more primary research would be invaluable

              medium consideration (on a Historical Overview Committee, I would nominate them)
              Doyle
              Dunlap
              Myer
              Randolph
              : Schoendienst
              : Lazzeri - although no one asked me
              -------- (I missed one in the poll but never mind.)

              low consideration
              Lopes
              McDougald
              Pratt
              : Mazeroski

              no consideration (there are HOF members here, but no primary secondbasemen)
              Gleason
              McAuliffe
              Phillips

              At the moment I feel that
              If they were on the outside I might put Schoendienst and Lazzeri in the next group below. If I had the authority to make multiple one-for-one replacements I would put them in the next group above; that, is replace them only by Grich, Barnes, or Gordon.
              Last edited by Paul Wendt; 05-10-2008, 09:46 AM. Reason: layout, I love tinkering with layout

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                -------- (I missed one in the poll but never mind.)

                low consideration
                Lopes
                McDougald
                Pratt
                Mazeroski
                Rereading, I'm not sure whether I should have voted for this group too. When I have a little time I'm quite open to giving consideration to retired baseball stars. Sometimes I go down this low when I don't have the time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'll take Gordon.
                  “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                  "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                    I'll take Gordon.

                    --This poll is not for you to pick who you think most deserving. You are supposed to voter for all you think deserve consideration. Let me know who else fits that criteria for you, please, and I'll add them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                      --This poll is not for you to pick who you think most deserving. You are supposed to voter for all you think deserve consideration. Let me know who else fits that criteria for you, please, and I'll add them.
                      I stand by my decision even with that criteria.
                      “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                      "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                        I stand by my decision even with that criteria.
                        --Unfortunately that subverts the intent of this thread. I'll have to make adjustments for your ballot as it stands. This is a preliminary round of voting and I'd hate to see somebody come up short of moving to the next round (all who get 50% support as "worthy of consideration" go to the next round which will be "which of these do you support for Cooperstown") because you choose not to follow the voting guidelines.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Support
                          Joe Gordon
                          Bobby Grich
                          Lou Whitaker
                          Willie Randolph
                          Frank White

                          Better Than Nellie Fox, Billy Herman, Maz, Lazzeri, and Schoendienst
                          Joe Gordon
                          Bobby Grich

                          Better than Herman, Maz, Lazzeri, and Schoendienst
                          Lou Whitaker

                          Better than Lazzeri and Schoendienst
                          Willie Randolph

                          Not Listed
                          Frank White


                          I must have missed the original balloting or something, or I would have supported White.

                          Code:
                          Player:             RAA2       RF     FPCT    
                          Frank White         145       .48      .04
                          Bill Mazeroski      203       .86      .07
                          Bobby Grich          94       .74      .05
                          
                          
                          RF and FPCT are above the league average
                          White
                          -5 All-Star Games
                          -8 Gold Gloves

                          Mazeroski
                          -7 All-Star Games
                          -8 Gold Gloves

                          Grich
                          -6 All-Star Games (5 at 2B)
                          -4 Gold Gloves


                          Grich won those four from 1973-1976, then Frank White won from 1977-1982, and two more later in the 1980's. Obviously the voters saw something in White's defense that was better than Grich's.

                          For playing in what is the best era of baseball for competitiveness (70's & 80's), White shines above Grich defensively for me.
                          Last edited by The Dude; 05-12-2008, 07:18 PM.
                          AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                          AL Pennant: 1982
                          NL Central Champions: 2011
                          NL Wild Card: 2008

                          "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            --Grich hurt his back carry an air conditioner the year he signed with the Angels. He was an awesome defender for the Orioles, but never at that level again after the injury. As a hitter he dwarves White or Mazeroski though.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                              --Grich hurt his back carry an air conditioner the year he signed with the Angels. He was an awesome defender for the Orioles, but never at that level again after the injury. As a hitter he dwarves White or Mazeroski though.

                              Agreed, which is why I support Grich far above supporting White. White deserves my support as well.
                              AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                              AL Pennant: 1982
                              NL Central Champions: 2011
                              NL Wild Card: 2008

                              "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

                              Comment

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