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Which Pre-1893 pitchers deserve to be in the HOF?

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  • Which Pre-1893 pitchers deserve to be in the HOF?

    Pitching prior to 1893 was much different than today. For starters, the pitching distance was closer. Pitchers also started out throwing underhand before switching to side arm throwing. There were also a lot less pitchers on a given team than there is today and a typical NL season saw 8 teams on average. The rival American Association's teams balooned and other rival leagues like the Player's League and Union Association diluted talent. Here is the breakdown of pitchers who pitched the majority of their careers (more than 66%) between 1871 and 1892. If I overlooked someone, let me know and I’ll add them:

    National Association These are pitchers who pitched a minimum of 50 games from 1871-1875 and their wins, losses, era, era+ and WHIP. Some of these players had a couple of years in the NL, but the majority of their play came in the NA. During this era, most teams carried only 1 pitcher with a handful of exceptions. I included both NA and NL stats for these players and ranked them by WHIP. Players who had more seasons in the MLs are listed in the NL/AA/UA/PL list below. # means in the HOF:

    Code:
     Player Wins Losses ERA ERA+ WHIP
    #Al Spalding 253-65 2.14 142 1.186
    Cherokee Fisher 57-84 2.83 107 1.219
    #Candy Cummings 145-94 2.49 120 1.221
    Dick McBride 149-78 2.85 115 1.245
    George Zettlein 129-112 2.78 113 1.306
    Jack Manning 38-27 3.16 82 1.350
    Asa Brainard 24-53 4.84 74 1.696
    Bill Stearns 12-64 4.98 67 1.739

    NL/AA/UA/PL These players played the majority of their careers in the NL/AA/UA/PL and played in a minimum of 150 games as a pitcher. During this period, many teams carried 1-3 primary pitchers and the number of teams hovered between 6 and 8 per league on average until 1892 when the AA disbanded and the NL expanded to 12 teams:

    Code:
    Player Wins Losses ERA ERA+ WHIP
    #John Ward 164-102 2.10 119 1.044
    Jim Devlin 72-76 2.90 142 1.086
    George Bradley 171-151 2.42 106 1.089
    Tommy Bond 234-163 2.31 111 1.093
    Larry Corcoran 177-89 2.90 123 1.105
    Ed Morris 171-152 2.82 115 1.108
    Will White 229-166 2.28 120 1.111
    Charlie Ferguson 99-64 2.67 121 1.117
    Terry Larkin 89-80 2.43 102 1.117
    #Tim Keefe 342-225 2.62 127 1.121
    Jim McCormick 265-214 2.43 118 1.132
    Jim Whitney 191-204 2.97 104 1.147
    #Charley Radbourn 309-195 2.67 119 1.149
    Fred Goldsmith 112-68 2.73 107 1.153
    Bob Caruthers 218-99 2.83 123 1.158
    Guy Hecker 173-146 333 114 1.168
    Dave Foutz 147-66 2.84 124 1.178
    Sam Weaver 70-80 2.86 89 1.180
    #Pud Galvin 364-310 3.07 107 1.191
    Dupee Shaw 83-121 3.08 99 1.195
    Henry Boyle 89-111 3.06 112 1.206
    #John Clarkson 328-158 2.81 134 1.209
    Jack Lynch 110-105 3.69 88 1.218
    Ed Seward 89-72 23.40 108 1.218
    #Mickey Welch 307-210 2.71 114 1.225
    Charley Buffinton 233-152 2.96 115 1.234
    Bobby Mathews 297-248 2.89 107 1.236
    Tony Mullane 284-220 3.05 118 1.237
    Toad Ramsey 114-124 3.86 117 1.243
    Hugh Daily 73-87 2.92 108 1.246
    Silver King 203-154 3.89 123 1.277
    Lee Richmond 75-100 3.06 94 1.284
    Charlie Getzein 145-139 3.46 99 1.288
    Ed Daily 66-70 3.39 97 1.290
    Ben Sanders 80-70 3.25 116 1.295
    Hardy Henderson 81-121 3.50 98 1.298
    Matt Kilroy 141-133 3.47 107 1.313
    Dan Casey 96-90 3.18 112 1.313
    Henry Porter 96-107 3.70 95 1.315
    Stump Weidman 101-156 3.21 89 1.317
    Jesse Duryea 59-67 3.45 109 1.333
    John Healy 78-136 3.84 93 1.343
    Harry Staley 136-119 3.08 106 1.353
    Hank O’Day 73-110 3.74 97 1.354
    Lee Viau 83-77 3.33 105 1.364
    Bob Barr 49-98 3.83 86 1.370
    Adonis Terry 197-197 3.74 103 1.372
    Bill Hutchison 183-163 3.59 112 1.382
    Scott Straton 97-114 3.87 98 1.382
    Jersey Bakeley 76-135 3.47 95 1.387
    Elton Chamberlain 159-120 2.19 112 1.392
    Mark Baldwin 156-165 3.36 113 1.425
    Kid Gleason 138-131 3.93 104 1.447
    Henry Gruber 61-78 3.67 99 1.458
    Frank Foreman 96-93 3.97 100 1.461
    Ad Gumbert 123-102 4.05 95 1.488
    George Haddock 95-87 3.81 94 1.496
    Al Maul 84-80 4.43 96 1.520
    Ed Crane 72-96 3.99 96 1.556
    This is one of many ways to look at pitchers, so feel free to compile the list in other ways. I don’t have access to win shares, so I didn’t add them. I’ll add a poll in a few days after everyone’s digested the list.
    Last edited by jjpm74; 05-14-2008, 05:38 PM.

  • #2
    Add Mullane and Caruthers to Cooperstown and you can close the book on 19th Century pitchers.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Classic View Post
      Add Mullane and Caruthers to Cooperstown and you can close the book on 19th Century pitchers.
      Do you think the ones that have been elected belong there?

      Cummings and Welch seem to be mistakes, looking at their careers. Cummings' induction rested on inventing something that he probably didn't invent. Welch got there because he was mediocre for a long time, often the 2nd best out of 2 pitchers but squeaked out 300 wins. Al Spalding won a lot of games in an era where he was 1 of 9 at his position and his position was considered the weakest next to RF on the team and just happened to be on the team with the most stars.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm getting ready to put together a poll for these players, but before we do, should I:

        Include all pitchers from both lists

        or

        whittle it down

        If I whittle it down, should I go by wins, WHIP, games or some other criteria?

        Should Jim Creighton; a pre stat tosser who was considered a star be added to the list?

        Depending on interest level, I plan on doing this for every period in baseball through 2008, including active players. The goal is to generate a list of pitchers who are deserving of induction if:

        -there was no 10 year minimum
        -we're waving the eligibility requirements, so banned players, players who played less than 10 seasons, active players and players who've been retired but are not yet eleigible for the HOF are eligible here.

        There will be a separate poll for all eligible NeL pitchers separately if someone was able to help me out with that list as my knowledge of the NeL and preNeL is not extensive.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
          Do you think the ones that have been elected belong there?

          Cummings and Welch seem to be mistakes, looking at their careers. Cummings' induction rested on inventing something that he probably didn't invent. Welch got there because he was mediocre for a long time, often the 2nd best out of 2 pitchers but squeaked out 300 wins. Al Spalding won a lot of games in an era where he was 1 of 9 at his position and his position was considered the weakest next to RF on the team and just happened to be on the team with the most stars.
          Since the practical reality is that we can't remove players from the Hall, adding Mullane and Caruthers is based on the fact that Welch is in there. If I could wave a magic wand, Cummings would be completely gone, Welch wouldn't have been elected and Spalding would have been honored as an executive, not as a player. If those three weren't in the Hall, I might have to reconsider my support for Caruthers and, to a lesser extent, Mullane.
          "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
          "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
          "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
          "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

          Comment


          • #6
            Jim McCormick deserves consideration as well.
            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

            Comment


            • #7
              Personally, I've considered McCormick and I draw the line after Caruthers, but before McCormick. Always happy to hear further analysis, however.
              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

              Comment

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