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  • Heinie Manush

    You dont read much about him, and Im curious as to whether people here think he is deserving of his hall of fame plaque. He appears to be borderline from what i can tell . How does he rank among his Tiger outfield teammates, Heilmann and Veach? I think he is clearly below Heilmann, but may not be better than Veach, who is not in the hall of fame. Also, who is better among the other...Heilmann or Crawford? They seem very close.
    Last edited by willshad; 05-19-2008, 02:54 PM.

  • #2
    1. Sam Crawford
    2. Harry Heilmann
    3. Heinie Manush
    ------------------------- Hall of Fame line
    4. Bobby Veach

    Manush isn't much better than Veach, but he was better. Manush is in, but he's not someone we should use as a baseline for future selections. Big gap between Heilmann and Manush here. Had Crawford and Heilmann played during the same years the question which was better wouldn't need to be asked.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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    • #3
      I dont know, Heilmann was a beast of a hitter..what exactly made Crawford better? Whoi would you say are the modern day equivalent of these guys, including veach and Manush.
      Last edited by willshad; 05-19-2008, 06:44 PM.

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      • #4
        I admit, I like a guy with a high batting average, and Manush's was very high. He also had 2500+ hits, which I equate with 250 wins - knocking on greatness' door, but not quite there yet.

        If Manush had 2500+ hits and a .280 average, I would say he doesn't belong. But, he hit .330 with 2524 hits, so I think he is a worthy Hall of Famer.

        And not only that, all the players statistically similar to him - except for Jimmy Ryan, who should be in the Hall in my opinion - are in the Hall of Fame, which also goes to show how good of a player he was.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
          I admit, I like a guy with a high batting average, and Manush's was very high. He also had 2500+ hits, which I equate with 250 wins - knocking on greatness' door, but not quite there yet.

          If Manush had 2500+ hits and a .280 average, I would say he doesn't belong. But, he hit .330 with 2524 hits, so I think he is a worthy Hall of Famer.

          And not only that, all the players statistically similar to him - except for Jimmy Ryan, who should be in the Hall in my opinion - are in the Hall of Fame, which also goes to show how good of a player he was.
          He also had pretty good power, but not really for his time (same with the batting average), and didnt walk at all. I guess sabermetric people would call him an 'out maker',. Who would he compare to in a more modern game? Al Oliver maybe?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by willshad View Post
            You dont read much about him, and Im curious as to whether people here think he is deserving of his hall of fame plaque. He appears to be borderline from what i can tell . How does he rank among his Tiger outfield teammates, Heilmann and Veach? I think he is clearly below Heilmann, but may not be better than Veach, who is not in the hall of fame. Also, who is better among the other...Heilmann or Crawford? They seem very close.
            Crawford and Heilmann are CLEARLY of HOF caliber. Heilmann (unduly criticized here, IMO) had a Career OWP of .742; Crawford .738.

            Veach actually tops Manush in Career OWP, .654 to .644, very much the HOF gray area for both.

            The reason Manush is in, while Veach is out is simple: Veach played in an era where BAs were significantly lower. Manush played in the best period in baseball history for BA. A .330 career hitter looks a whole lot better than a career .310 hitter if you don't adjust for era.

            The .330 career BA was Manush's ticket to the HOF. Not many guys hit .330, let's face it, and if you have a .330 career BA in ANY era, the discussion ought to be one of "Why not?" rather than "Why?" There are some legitimate "Why nots" for Manush, but he was elected in 1964, when BAs were on their way to all-time lows. His .330 lifetime BA looked positively astounding in 1964, when he was inducted.

            In a 715 run context, Manush's adjusted career BA is .312, whereas Veach's is .315. Timing is everything sometimes.
            "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

            NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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            • #7
              Manush also had 1000 more at bats and 500 more hits..pretty significant. Im guessing Veach just didnt have the long enough career..and wasnt dominant enough for a short career guy.

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              • #8
                How is OWP calculated? Does it just use offensive stats raw or does it adjust for things like position, stadium, and era? what about longevity?
                Last edited by willshad; 05-19-2008, 07:37 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by willshad View Post
                  Manush also had 1000 more at bats and 500 more hits..pretty significant. Im guessing Veach just didnt have the long enough career..and wasnt dominant enough for a short career guy.
                  I don't give much significance to Veach's longer career. Veach took longer to get to the majors; he was a 25 year old rookie, but he also began in an era where the minor leagues were more independent, and a player would be more likely to stay in the minors long after he was ready to be in the majors. The two extra years in the minors is where the extra ABs for Manush come from.

                  Part of the 500 extra hits come from the higher league BA over the course of Manush's career (.290 vs. .275). Manush did hit 40 points better than league for his career, while Veach only hit 35 points better. However, Veach was the more patient hitter, and he was 25 points over league in OBP while Manush was only 18 points better (in a league that got on base more).

                  Manush is in the HOF (and Veach is not) in part because of his higher BA, and, in part, because he ranked higher on his teams. Veach played with Cobb and Crawford, so it was easy to overshadow him; Manush played for several teams, and played with the Tigers when Cobb and Crawford were fading. It's not clear who the better player really was, but these guys were pretty close, and it's hard to argue that either should be in if you're arguing that the other should be out.
                  "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                  NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't have any real problem with Manush being in the HoF, but of the 51 OF's in the HoF he would probably rank in low 40's in relation to them.

                    Manush is well behind Heilmann and Crawford and only somewhat ahead of Veach. I don't know why you would want to compare him to them anyone. Crawford, Heilmann, and Veach all played 12+ seasons with the Tigers while Manush was only there for 5. You could as just as well compared him to Goose Goslin and Sam Rice of the Senators.
                    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                      I admit, I like a guy with a high batting average, and Manush's was very high. He also had 2500+ hits, which I equate with 250 wins - knocking on greatness' door, but not quite there yet.

                      If Manush had 2500+ hits and a .280 average, I would say he doesn't belong. But, he hit .330 with 2524 hits, so I think he is a worthy Hall of Famer.
                      However, Manush did not walk very often; his single-season high was just 47. He wasn't much of a power hitter, either. Thus, his secondary average was only .230, so he was worse than his batting average alone indicates. His OPS+ was 121, which isn't that good for a defensively OK corner outfielder lacking in speed.

                      And not only that, all the players statistically similar to him - except for Jimmy Ryan, who should be in the Hall in my opinion - are in the Hall of Fame, which also goes to show how good of a player he was.
                      The problem is that Manush' career OPS+ of 121 is lower than nine of the ten players on the list; the sole exception is Pie Traynor, who was a very good defensive third baseman. There are nine members of Cooperstown on the list, but at least eight of them (Cuyler is the possible exception) are better than Manush. Being not quite as good as a bunch of people in Cooperstown isn't a good argument.

                      Willshad says that Al Oliver might be a good match. Oliver, like Manush, had a career OPS+ of 121. Dixie Walker was another corner outfielder with an OPS+ of 121.

                      Manush' win share line is 285-90-128. I decided to look for corner outfielders with similar lines, and produced the following.

                      Jim Rice 282-92-127
                      Jose Cruz 313-86-124
                      George Foster 269-87-132
                      Rocky Colavito 273-94-133
                      Dixie Walker 278-88-133

                      They were all very good baseball players. They just don't strike me as deserving of Cooperstown. When I made a Keltner List for Manush, he didn't look like a deserving Hall of Famer, either.

                      Heilmann's win share line is 356-97-154. Heilmann's career started about a decade before Manush', so his first few years were in the deadball era. Heilmann still had more home run power than Manush, and Heilmann was pretty good at drawing walks, so that gave him additional value. Heilmann's final career OPS+ was 148. He was deserving of HOF induction.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Manush is ok, he's Kiki Cuyler or Edd Roush or Paul Waner with a shorter run. Guys that hit .330 lifetime get in, toss in the batting crown, hits black ink, etc and you have a case. He also did well in the Mvp vote, and was a decent ish Lf if not a GG. The cliche seems to be he's Al Oliver, but he's got more of a Griffey Sr/ Cruz Sr look to me.

                        I'm a Big Hall guy, if they put Scoops or Veach in I'd be fine with it.
                        Last edited by TomBodet; 09-30-2012, 07:21 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
                          Guys that hit .330 lifetime get in
                          Tell that to Riggs Stephenson and Pete Browning.

                          Speaking of Riggs, in his discussion thread I provided a little context for that "big BA".
                          Last edited by Freakshow; 10-01-2012, 09:02 AM.
                          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

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                          • #14
                            Crawford was also a good fielder. I don't know what his arm was like, but I imagine it to be at least above average for a guy with his dead-ball slugging. Cobb's quotes on Crawford are rather mixed over his lifetime, but I've never read him attack Crawford's fielding (unless provoked), which is worth something given his moody dislike and willingness to put someone's weakness under the microscope to fuel his com apetitive advantage. In fact, it was Crawford who said that Cobb was a "lousy" outfielder, so any efforts Cobb believe to be haphazard on Crawford's part where actually due to Cobb's shortcoming. Crawford was a rather modest man, so it says something if said his fielding was better than Cobb's (true or not).

                            Crawford definitely played in dead-ball manner, but his numbers also indicate that he was a bit ahead of his time, going a bit more for power (hence the XBH). I believe his conemporary is Carlos Beltran (maybe a few years ago): great runner and a smooth fielder who can hit for power, though not a ridiculous amount. I guess we'll never know how Crawford's slugging would've been if he played after 1920.
                            "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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                            • #15
                              Some months ago BSmile,on the Babe Ruth thread(photos),posted this group picture that included the Babe.I was able to identify two other ball players,both Heine Manush and Harry Heilmann in the picture.It was taken in a Detroit(speakeasy)basement in 1925.Manush is to the right of Ruth,with a woman`s hand touching his face.Harry Heilmann is to the right with his hand covering part of his face and partially hidden behind a fellow party animal`s head,another fellow has both of his hands on Slug`s shoulders.The Babe and Manush don`t seem to have any qualms about being photographed.Cobb was Manush and Heilmann`s manager at the time!!The woman to the left of Ruth wearing a cap adorned with a piece of jewelry is the future wife of Tiger pitcher Earl Whitehill,Violet Geissinger. 1920s Babe Ruth at Speakeasy (bbf).jpg
                              Last edited by Nimrod; 10-01-2012, 09:12 AM.

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