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The Top 100 Hall of Fame Player Candidates (UQFC)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by John Shoemaker View Post
    The only one I'd support is Harold Baines.
    Of course, we have four spots to fill on the ballot, so other suggestions are welcome.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

    Comment


    • #17
      Of those with which I am somewhat familiar, I would go with Garvey, Baines, Kuenn, and DiMaggio. I need to research the older players more, but those four are off the top of my head from more recent memory.
      The Writer's Journey

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      • #18
        1920 Cy Williams 35.6%

        Ken Williams?

        Comment


        • #19
          These 21 players will be in the poll in this thread:
          1880 Hardy Richardson*
          1880 George Gore*+
          1890 Mike Tiernan
          1890 Dummy Hoy
          1900 Johnny Kling
          1910 Babe Adams

          1910 Ed Konetchy
          1920 Jack Quinn
          1930 Lefty O'Doul
          1930 Lon Warneke
          1940 Johnny Pesky
          1960 Norm Cash
          1960 Elston Howard
          1960 Maury Wills
          1960 Vada Pinson
          1970.1 Sal Bando
          1970.1 Sparky Lyle
          1970.2 Dave Concepcion
          1980.1 Jack Morris
          1980.1 Don Mattingly
          1980.2 Bret Saberhagen*
          my emphasis:
          bold - honorable mention round 2, also-ran in discussion for round 3
          (Round 2 is still open for the 70s and 80s of both centuries.)

          Regarding the 14 under discussion now, I answered
          >>
          Pike, certainly,
          plus three of Vaughn, Bartell, DiMaggio, and Staub
          <<

          Here is another perspective. We will select 11 of these 35 players to complete the top 100. If Adams, Kling, and O'Doul get no special treatment then I will vote for Pike, Staub, and Vaughn among the also-rans now under discussion, if they are on a "vote for 11 of 25" ballot. I will not vote for Bartell. Not for DiMaggio if we add Pike, Staub, and Vaughn; too close to call if we do less than that.
          Last edited by Paul Wendt; 05-21-2008, 08:04 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
            Here is another perspective. We will select 11 of these 35 players to complete the top 100. If Adams, Kling, and O'Doul get no special treatment then I will vote for Pike, Staub, and Vaughn among the also-rans now under discussion, if they are on a "vote for 11 of 25" ballot. I will not vote for Bartell. Not for DiMaggio if we add Pike, Staub, and Vaughn; too close to call if we do less than that.
            ---Adams, Kling and O'Doul get no special treatment here. Previously, they did well in a shallow pool of players; this one's a bit deeper - can they stay afloat on their own?

            ---Correct, it will be a "vote for 11 of 25" ballot.

            ---Ken Williams drew 25% support, named on 9 of 36 ballots in the 1920's voting. A tenth place finish in that weak field is a good argument that he is not one of the top 100 candidates for the HOF.
            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

            Comment


            • #21
              Will also be voting for Lipman.
              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

              Comment


              • #22
                So far, Pike, Staub, Garvey and Vaughn have drawn the most interest as candidates for the top 100 poll. Baines, Marberry and Dimaggio have also been supported by more than one opinion. We can keep this discussion going for a couple more days, seeing who else might like to chime in.:atthepc
                Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Pike, Garvey, Williams....and I suppose Marberry

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    williams

                    Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                    Ken Williams drew 25% support, named on 9 of 36 ballots in the 1920's voting. A tenth place finish in that weak field is a good argument that he is not one of the top 100 candidates for the HOF.
                    My mistake. Somehow I missed the fine first-round performance of Cy Williams. That's a "surprise" (except that we have known it for three months) --but 36% for Ken Williams would be a "surprise" too.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Cooperstown support for these 35 players (21 from column A, 14 from column B)

                      Six of 35 were on the Veterans Committee ballot (~25 stage two nominees) during 2003-2007. Wills and Pinson were there for all three elections and Lyle since he became eligible in 2005. For 2007 they added Travis and O'Doul among others and dropped Elston Howard. Only Travis among the six is from column B under discussion now.

                      03 05 07 - election February 20xx
                      24 26 33 Maury Wills - gaining ground
                      21 23 16 Vada Pinson - losing ground
                      -- -- 15 Lefty O'Doul
                      -- -- 12 Cecil Travis
                      -- _7 _6 Sparky Lyle
                      _6 _6 -- Elston Howard

                      Twenty-two of the 35 were nominated by the Historical Overview Committee (~200). Baines, Concepcion, Garvey, Mattingly, Morris, and Saberhagen (6) were not yet eligible in 2007 and the HOC rejected Davis, Gore, Konetchy, Pike, Richardson, Vaughn, and Yost.

                      They nominated 50 of our 89 round one winners. Here are
                      39 round one winners not nominated by the HOC
                      1870s - all (6)
                      1880s - Bennett and Hines
                      1890s - Long (nominated 2003 and 2005) and Childs
                      1900s - all (6)
                      1910s - Fournier
                      1920s -
                      1930s -
                      1940s - Keller
                      1950s -
                      1960s -
                      1970-1: John (not yet eligible, same status as 20 from later periods)
                      1970-2: all (6)
                      1980-1: all (8)
                      1980-2: all (6)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                        the HOC rejected Davis, Gore, Konetchy, Pike, Richardson, Vaughn, and Yost.

                        They nominated 50 of our 89 round one winners. Here are
                        39 round one winners not nominated by the HOC
                        1870s - all (6)
                        1880s - Bennett and Hines
                        1890s - Long (nominated 2003 and 2005) and Childs
                        1900s - all (6)
                        1910s - Fournier
                        1920s -
                        1930s -
                        1940s - Keller
                        1950s -
                        1960s -
                        1970-1: John (not yet eligible, same status as 20 from later periods)
                        1970-2: all (6)
                        1980-1: all (8)
                        1980-2: all (6)
                        Great study, worth thinking about.

                        To me, then, the Historical Overview Committee should be credited with 15 egregious omissions. Setting aside players who did not play ten major league seasons from 1876-on, this is the list:

                        Joe Start
                        Ezra Sutton
                        Deacon White
                        Charlie Bennett
                        Paul Hines
                        Cupid Childs
                        Herman Long
                        Mike Donlin
                        Fielder Jones
                        Tommy Leach
                        Cy Seymour
                        Jimmy Sheckard
                        Roy Thomas
                        Jack Fournier
                        Charlie Keller
                        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The Polls Are Now Open!

                          The poll has been added to this thread. It will be open for one month.

                          In this poll we're sorting through the Round 1 rejects and deciding which 11 belong with the 89 Round 1 winners, completing the list of the top 100 MLB player candidates for the HOF. This is a tough ballot; most of the players on it would be considered as members of the Hall of Very Good rather than candidates for the Hall of Fame. The differences between these players is slight, so please carefully consider all 25 candidates before filling in your 11 choices.

                          Based on our discussion above, the four players chosen to round out the ballot are Lip Pike, Rusty Staub, Steve Garvey and Hippo Vaughn

                          As always, go beyond the numbers and base your votes on the total contribution to baseball made by these men.
                          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Early on in the UQFC project I wrote that "one of the aims of this project is to show players that should NOT be considered as serious candidates; we should curtail future discussion on the players cut in Round 1."

                            Later I expounded on this by writing, "I think there's a good argument there, that if a player doesn't rank among the top 100 candidates that they probably don't have a good case for election to the Hall."

                            I think it's good to keep these in mind as you're thinking about this poll, to perhaps approach it as, Which 14 players could I live without them ever again being considered for the HOF?

                            Unless, of course, you're of the Small Hall persuasion. In that case, your approach might be, Which 11 of these players has something to sell to a HOF voter?
                            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Code:
                              LF		CF		RF
                              Lefty O'Doul	George Gore	Rusty Staub -dh-1b
                              		Dummy Hoy	Mike Tiernan
                              		Lip Pike
                              		Vada Pinson
                              
                              3B		SS		2B		1B
                              Sal Bando	Dave Concepcion	H. Richardson	Norm Cash
                              		Johnny Pesky-3b		-of	Steve Garvey
                              		Maury Wills			Ed Konetchy
                              						Don Mattingly
                              P		RP
                              Babe Adams	Sparky Lyle
                              Jack Morris		
                              Jack Quinn
                              Bret Saberhagen
                              Hippo Vaughn
                              Lon Warneke
                              
                              C
                              Elston Howard
                              Johnny Kling
                              Gore, Pike, Richardson, and Saberhagen are in the Hall of Merit.
                              O'Doul and Gore are in the BBF Hall of Fame, O'Doul as a contributor.

                              (I agree with the consensus of two Halls that Gore is the best candidate on the table.)

                              Garvey, Mattingly, and Saberhagen were considered MVP/Cy Young type players. In retrospect Gore, Pike, and Vaughn were those types.

                              Wills, Cash, and Howard won MVP awards in the early 1960s. Wills and Howard also finished third. Cash was consistently very good but the one season was a huge outlier in his career.

                              Bando, Concepcion, and Kling were key members of great teams. So were Gore, Wills, Garvey, and Howard.

                              Johnny Kling was a "world champion" at baseball and billiards simultaneously. He left baseball "to earn a living in the pool hall" locally, in his home town Kansas City, where he also played semipro baseball. After failing to defend that billiards championship he returned to the Cubs. (See the SABR biography by Dave Anderson)
                              Last edited by Paul Wendt; 05-26-2008, 06:46 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Adams
                                Cash
                                Concepcion
                                Garvey
                                Gore
                                Howard
                                Mattingly
                                O'Doul
                                Pike
                                Richardson
                                Staub

                                Gore, O'Doul and Richardson should be in the Hall of Fame, imo. Pike probably warrants some consideration but I don't support him. Would not be surprised if Wills eventually was recognized by the VC. He shouldn't be, but he had some tremendous years and was a big name.
                                1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                                1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                                1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                                1966 1974 1977 1978


                                1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                                2013 2014


                                1996 2006

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