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Historical Overview Committee (nominating cmte since 2002)

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    post-1942, continued

    Wikipedia reports that the HOC named twenty players and six members independently named five, yielding 21 preliminary candidates. Members met at Cooperstown during induction weekend and soon reduced the batch to 10.

    Wikipedia: " Baseball Hall of Fame balloting, 2009"
    . . . A six-member panel of Hall of Famers also met to independently select five players for consideration; these lists were merged to create a preliminary ballot of 21 names: Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Bert Campaneris, Rocky Colavito, Mike Cuellar, Steve Garvey, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Ted Kluszewski, Mickey Lolich, Roger Maris, Lee May, Minnie Miñoso, Thurman Munson, Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson, Ron Santo, Luis Tiant, Joe Torre and Maury Wills.

    . . . voting was now limited to Hall members; they met at the Hall during induction weekend in 2008, and reduced the ballot to 10 names through voting by mail in August. This final ballot was then sent to the 64 living members, and they voted by mail, casting votes for up to four candidates each.
    Relying on this report,, the eleven candidates eliminated in August must be
    six from the 2007 ballot (ordered by number of 2007 votes)
    : Maris, Minoso, Boyer, Lolich, Colavito, and Munson; and
    five newcomers (ordered alphabetically)
    : Campaneris, Cuellar, Garvey, Kluszewski, and Lee May.

    Only Garvey was eligible for the first time; he last played in 1987. The others were among the two hundred stage one nominees for 2007.

    Evidently the HOC dropped four 2007 finalists who remained eligible by their pre-1943 debuts (ordered by number of 2007 votes).
    : Don Newcombe (7th place, 17 votes), Curt Flood, Sparky Lyle, Bobby Bonds
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-12-2009, 06:55 PM.

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    recent players (debut after 1942)

    Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    For this time period the HOC named the leading incumbents from the unfruitful 2007 election, with emphasis on the more recent. In particular, among the 15 strongest 2007 candidates who remain eligible after the latest reforms, they renominated the oldest (Gil Hodges), passed over the next five (Minoso, Newcombe, Boyer, Flood, Maris), and renominated the nine youngest.

    Baseball-Fever discussion of post-1942 ballot
    Now compare the same two slates in terms of electoral support in the two-year-ago election, rather than in terms of age. The HOC renominated the top six from that election plus four others who ranked 8, 9t, 11t, and 14 among the recent players on that ballot. In a reasonably clear sense they passed over Don Newcombe 7 and Roger Maris 9t in favor of Al Oliver 11t and Dick Allen 14 --where those numerals represent 2007 election ranks among the recent players only. Curt Flood 11t and Minnie Minoso 13 are the others who topped Dick Allen in that two-year-ago election.

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  • Freakshow
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    How do we know whom the main Veterans Committee considered?
    Good question. Did they keep minutes of the meetings 1953-2001?

    Failing that, we have only anecdotes, suppositions and our imaginations. I can easily imagine some more progressive members of the VC suggesting names of Negro League players. Likewise, I can just as easily imagine none of them ever being seriously considered by the VC at large.

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
    I have no hard evidence for the following assertion: The HOF/BBWAA instituted the ten-year rule for eligibility, in no small part, to keep black players off the ballot and out of the HOF.

    I don't know the exact year it was instituted (at some point in the mid-1950's). Jackie Robinson was in decline, with no guarantee he'd play ten years. Paige, Irvin, Easter et al were older when they debuted, they fell short of ten years in MLB. The regular veterans committee never considered these players for election, AFAIK. After all, they never even received a vote in a BBWAA election.
    How do we know whom the main Veterans Committee considered?

    According to the presentation by Ken Smith in Baseball's Hall of Fame, NBHOFM executive director and former BBWAA secretary, a requirement to play in 10 major league seasons was one of the reforms adopted by the Board of Directors summer 1956. The committee that drafted the new rules comprised Kerr from the institution (the same who resisted induction of Negro Leagues players in 1970-71), major league presidents Harridge and Giles from baseball, and writers Lyall Smith, Ken Smith, and Tom Swope.

    The 1956 reforms concerned both Veterans Committee and BBWAA elections, but I have interpreted the 10-season rule as one governing the BBWAA ballot only. The printed ballot listing all eligible candidates was introduced then. Certainly, in order to print them all, they needed some criterion to limit the number. As of the next election, December '56 or '57, the rule would have been "print in alphabetical order the names of everyone who played in at least 10 mlb seasons and last played 6 to 30 seasons previously.

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  • Freakshow
    replied
    Originally posted by Classic View Post
    It wasn't. Irvin was elected by the Negro Leagues Committee, not by the regular Veterans Committee, if I'm not mistaken. As I recall from 2006, the Negro Leagues Committee passed on Minoso for precisely the same reason that the Veterans Committee had previously passed on Irvin: the split career.
    I doubt that the VC actually "passed" on Irvin; I don't think they ever considered his case at all.

    I have no hard evidence for the following assertion: The HOF/BBWAA instituted the ten-year rule for eligibility, in no small part, to keep black players off the ballot and out of the HOF.

    I don't know the exact year it was instituted (at some point in the mid-1950's). Jackie Robinson was in decline, with no guarantee he'd play ten years. Paige, Irvin, Easter et al were older when they debuted, they fell short of ten years in MLB. The regular veterans committee never considered these players for election, AFAIK. After all, they never even received a vote in a BBWAA election.

    No doubt, there were also those in the baseball establishment at the time who believed it would be only the rare Negro player that could endure the rigors of the Big Leagues to last ten years, that they "lacked the essentials" to compete long-term at the highest level. So I believe that the ten-year barrier was erected, to a strong degree, to keep Black players out of the Coop.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 09-17-2008, 02:33 PM.

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  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by mtortolero View Post
    Vada Pinson ans Al Oliver were the best players they can choose to replace Minoso?
    Why Minoso´s missing time by the racial issue is not considered for him as it was for Monte Irvin?
    It wasn't. Irvin was elected by the Negro Leagues Committee, not by the regular Veterans Committee, if I'm not mistaken. As I recall from 2006, the Negro Leagues Committee passed on Minoso for precisely the same reason that the Veterans Committee had previously passed on Irvin: the split career.

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  • mtortolero
    replied
    Vada Pinson ans Al Oliver were the best players they can choose to replace Minoso?
    Why Minoso´s missing time by the racial issue is not considered for him as it was for Monte Irvin?

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    HOC nominations for 2009, mlb debuts after 1942

    Today Cooperstown announced the ten post-1942 candidates for the 2009 cycle.
    "Ten Finalists Named for HOF Consideration:
    Post-World War II player election results to be announced Dec. 8"
    (NBHOFM press release 2008-09-16)

    Three posts up, I have edited "nominations, so-called 2009".

    For this time period the HOC named the leading incumbents from the unfruitful 2007 election, with emphasis on the more recent. In particular, among the 15 strongest 2007 candidates who remain eligible after the latest reforms, they renominated the oldest (Gil Hodges), passed over the next five (Minoso, Newcombe, Boyer, Flood, Maris), and renominated the nine youngest.

    Baseball-Fever discussion of post-1942 ballot

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  • KCGHOST
    replied
    Interesting stuff, but it still doesn't change my opinion that the whole concept needs to be scrapped. The most recent veterans committee election and the Negro Leagues comittee election simply brought more mistakes into the HoF.

    There are a number of deserving players from by-gone years who should be inducted, the HoF just does seem to understand the type of people they need on a committee like this to select them.

    Leave a comment:


  • henrich
    replied
    Great info

    I appreciate your efforts here Paul. Thanks-it was an interesting read.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    nominations, so-called 2009

    Quoting myself from #1 above

    The Historical Overview Committee has been one nominating committee for some of the Hall of Fame "veterans" elections beginning 2003, fifty years after the first election by the famous Veterans Committee. The NBHOFM Board of Directors made established the HOC as one piece of a new system in 2001 and "the Overviewers" survived major reform of that system in 2007.

    For the 2003, 2005, and 2007 Veterans Committee elections the HOC nominated 200 players and 60 other contributors, the semifinalists. The final ballots comprised 25-30 players and 15 contributors from those lists.

    For the 2008 elections (December 2007) the HOC developed the final ballot of 10 managers and umpires. Following the reforms of 2007, the HOC is also the sole nominating committee for players who debuted in the major leagues before 1943. So the HOC composes two ballots under the reformed system.
    - 10 managers and umpires
    - 15 players with debuts before 1943

    There has been little change in the Overviewers membership since 2003 (see the table) so their work for the 2003 to 2007 elections presumably gives some indication whom they will nominate. The change, a big one, is they will set the final ballots rather than serve as the first stage of two.

    End quotation (bold is new emphasis. Perhaps '15 players' was my typo for '10 players')


    The HOC has nominated 10 pre-1943 players for the 2009 cycle, announced by Cooperstown this afternoon [2008-08-26]. For discussion of that slate and the process from this point onward see the neighboring "Pre-1943 Vets' turn".

    add: Today 2008-09-16 Cooperstown announced the 10 post-1942 players nominated for the 2009 cycle. For discussion of that slate and the process from this point onward see the neighboring "Post-1943 VC Ballot Announced!""

    The Historical Oversight Committee members this year were the same as last year for so-called 2008. Either 10 or all 11 of these eleven baseball writers have composed the HOC in all five cycles. See the table in #1 above.

    Sources:
    "Ten Finalists Named for HOF Consideration:
    Veterans Committee to vote on pre-1943 players this December"
    (NBHOFM press release 2008-08-26)
    "Ten Finalists Named for HOF Consideration:
    Post-World War II player election results to be announced Dec. 8"
    (NBHOFM press release 2008-09-16)
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 12-11-2008, 01:44 PM. Reason: add notice of post-1942 nominees

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    Whom did they nominate from the 19th century? and from the deadball era?

    Nominees with mlb debuts before 1893 (15 for 2003 and 2005; 14 for 2007; 2 for 2009)
    [add: Deacon White 1871-05-04, first time nominee for 2009]
    Will White 1877-07-20
    Jack Glasscock 1879-05-01
    Harry Stovey 1880-05-01
    Tony Mullane 1881-08-27
    Pete Browning 1882-05-02
    Charlie Buffinton 1882-05-17
    Bob Caruthers 1884-09-07
    Jimmy Ryan 1885-10-08
    Lave Cross 1887-04-23
    Mike Tiernan 1887-04-30
    George Van Haltren 1887-06-27
    Dummy Hoy 1888-04-20
    Herman Long 1889-04-17 (dropped for 2007)
    Patsy Donovan 1890-04-19
    Bill Dahlen 1891-04-22

    Nominees with mlb debuts before WWI (29 for 2003; 31 for 2005; 32 for 2007; 2 for 2009)
    Fred Tenney 1894-06-16
    Jesse Tannehill 1894-06-17
    Sam Leever 1898-05-26
    Ginger Beaumont 1899-04-21
    Deacon Phillippe 1899-04-21
    Johnny Kling 1900-09-11
    Ed Reulbach 1905-05-16
    Babe Adams 1906-04-18
    Gavvy Cravath 1908-04-18
    Stuffy McInnis 1909-04-12
    Jack Quinn 1909-04-15
    Jake Daubert 1910-04-14
    George Burns 1911-10-03
    Heinie Groh 1912-04-12
    Cy Williams 1912-07-18
    Bobby Veach 1912-08-06
    Wilbur Cooper 1912-08-29
    Wally Schang 1913-05-09
    Wally Pipp 1913-06-29 (dropped for 2007)
    Bob Shawkey 1913-07-16
    George Burns 1914-04-14
    Dolf Luque 1914-05-20
    Irish Meusel 1914-10-01
    Carl Mays 1915-04-15
    Ken Williams 1915-07-14
    Art Nehf 1915-08-13
    Joe Judge 1915-09-20
    Urban Shocker 1916-04-24
    Charlie Grimm 1916-07-30 (dropped and nominated as a manger for 2007)

    2005: add Larry Doyle, Joe Wood

    2007: add Sherry Magee 1904-06-29, Clyde Milan, Slim Sallee

    Summing these two lists, that is 44 nominees for 2003, 46 for 2005 and 2007, among 200 nominees from all time periods. (add: For 2009 the number is 4 nominees (bold) among 10 who played before 1943.) The whole list of nominees improved a little from cycle to cycle. With 20 newly eligible players added, and net two players added with debuts before WWI, there were 22 nominees culled who played mainly in the overrepresented 1920s-60s.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 12-07-2008, 08:29 AM. Reason: updates -08-25 and -12-07 for "2009" election (Dec 2008)

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    2003 - 2005 - 2007 adds

    Whom did they drop and add from 2003 to 2005 and from 2005 to 2007?

    Herman Long and Wally Pipp are the only important players from the underserved time whom they dropped.
    In the add column (left), the bold "veterans" are
    Code:
    [U]add for 2005[/U] (11 inclg 3 prev eligible)	[U]drop for 2005[/U] (11 inclg 4 pre-WWII)
    Mark	Belanger			Johnny Allen
    Bert	Campaneris			Bobby Avila
    [B]Larry	Doyle[/B]				Glenn Beckert
    Jim	Kaat				Guy Bush
    Sparky	Lyle				Leo Cardenas
    Lee	May				Larry French
    Bobby	Murcer				Julian Javier
    [B]Andy	Pafko[/B]				Mel Parnell
    Reggie	Smith				J.R. Richard
    Luis	Tiant				Manny Sanguillen
    [B]Joe	Wood[/B]				Hal Schumacher
     
    [U]add for 2007[/U] (15 inclg 3 prev eligible)	[U]drop for 2007[/U] (15 inclg 8 pre-WWII)
    Larry	Bowa				Charlie Grimm (nominated as a manager)
    Burt	Hooton				Harvey Higgins
    Jerry	Koosman				Pinky Higgins
    Greg	Luzinski			Davey Johnson (nominated as a manager)
    [B]Sherry	Magee[/B]				Willie Kamm
    Tug	McGraw				Joe Kuhel
    [B]Clyde	Milan[/B]				Vern Law
    Al	Oliver				[B]Herman Long[/B]
    Amos	Otis				Bobo Newsom
    Mickey	Rivers				[B]Wally Pipp[/B]
    Steve	Rogers				Pete Runnels
    [B]Slim	Sallee[/B]				Hank Sauer
    Ken	Singleton			Tony Taylor
    Rusty	Staub				Johnny Temple
    Bob	Watson				Glenn Wright
    2003-2005:
    Guy Bush (1923 debut), Larry French (1929), Hal Schumacher (1931), and Johnny Allen (1932) are the only pre-WWII drops.

    2005-2007:
    Long (1888), Pipp (1913), Grimm (1916), Kamm (1923), Wright (1924), Newsom (1929), Higgins (1930) and Kuhel (1930) are the pre-WWII drops.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 05-23-2008, 07:23 PM.

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    HOC treatment of Ultimate Quest round one winners

    [exhumed from "The Top 100 Hall of Fame Player Candidates (UQFC)" #25;
    see Dan Greenia's reply
    ]

    ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------
    For the 2007 election of veteran players, the Historical Overview Committee nominated 50 of our 89 round one winners in "The Ultimate Quest For Candidates". Here are the

    39 round one winners not nominated by the HOC

    1870s - all (6): Barnes, McVey, Pearce, Start, Sutton, Deacon White

    1880s - Bennett, Hines

    1890s - Long, Childs

    1900s - all (6): Donlin, Fielder Jones, Leach, Seymour, Sheckard, Roy Thomas

    1910s - Fournier
    1920s -
    1930s -
    1940s - Keller
    1950s -
    1960s -
    1970-1: John (not yet eligible, same as all 20 winners from later periods)
    1970-2: all (6)
    1980-1: all (8)
    1980-2: all (6)

    : Barnes, McVey, and Pearce are not eligible for the HOF because they did not play in ten seasons from 1876.
    : The HOC nominated Long for 2003 and 2005.
    : For the 1910s to 1960s, the HOC nominated 37 of our 39 round one winners.

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  • Paul Wendt
    replied
    changes in the 200 players nominated

    [also from "Veterans Committee membership" #11]

    Eleven players nominated in the 2003 cycle were dropped for 2005 in favor of eight newly eligible players plus Larry Doyle, Andy Pafko, and Joe Wood.

    Fifteen players nominated in the 2005 cycle were dropped for 2007 in favor of twelve newly eligible players plus Sherry Magee, Clyde Milan, and Slim Sallee.

    Those six veteran adds (added to the ballot, not newly eligible) are five from the 1910s and Pafko from the 1940s-50s Cubs, Dodgers, and Braves.

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