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OK, let me start off by saying that I do believe that sabermetrics are important in determining whether or not someone belongs in the Hall or not. However, it seems like now that's all that anyone pays attention to! I hate reading people criticize players they probably never even got to see play by just pointing out their statistics. There is a lot more to it than just looking at the statistics. Personality, classiness, popularity, FAME...those are other factors I find important in judging. No, I don't think its so important that every player with a great personality belongs in...I wouldn't ever claim Mickey Hatcher belongs in because he was well liked by his teammates, but I can't believe some of the players who get criticized for not being Hall worthy. Just look at ElHalo...OK, let me say this: I like ElHalo and enjoy reading his posts, but he is one of those examples of a person who judges by sabermetrics. He criticizes players like Robin Yount and say they don't belong in the Hall because their stats are unspectacular for their positions. I don't see how 3,000 hits is unspectacular for any position! Yount was one of those very well liked players who stuck with the same team his entire career (which started at age 18, btw) and put up big numbers in the process. I just don't understand how sabermetrics have gotten so out of control.
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Don't hate the game. Hate the players. Some choose to spin numbers toward their view, and a lot just use the numbers as a starting point.Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
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There's a balance in there somewhere. I agree saying a player is worthy or unworthy solely on stats (especially just offensive stats) doesn't give you the whole picture, it gives you a starting place.
Of course, the other side of the same coin is saying that someone isn't worthy while ignoring the statistics (say, Frank Thomas), is just as bad...maybe worse, since they're not based on objectivity or reason.
Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.Comment
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Like people who only go by eyewitness accounts that may be biased?Originally posted by futurehalloffamer
<Personality, classiness, popularity, FAME...those are other factors I find important in judging.>
That's why you're not on the HOF selection committeeMythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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Actually, they are not on the committee because they are not a baseball writer. What are you talking about?Originally posted by RuthMayBondComment
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El Halo?
EH, is probably on the short list of guys who go to war with the SABR crowd more than I do.
I have heard some ridiluous arguments from both sides, IMO. Dave McNally for the Hall, Mickey Lolich and then on the other side, Jimmy Wynn. However, the person who began this thread is responsible for the most unsubstantiated case I think I've seen here- Frank Thomas not for the Hall. It is an acheivement to make "Wynn for" seem like the epitome of reasoning.
I'm not crazy about all the numbers, but I don't think the traditionalistis are necessarlily right any more often.
Its all about baseball knowledge, perspective and being able to relate a variety of circumstances. Neither traditional cliches or fancy numbers are a substitute.THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD
In the avy: AZ - Doe or DieComment
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Robin Yount actually looks much better using sabermetrics than he does using traditional stats.Comment
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To build on one theme I see in this post, one can make idiotic arguments about baseball with sabermetrics or without them. Sabermetrics is simply a specific set of tools. I happen to think those tools make it easier to get a clear view of a player--but true craftsmen can get there without those tools. Remember, the results from best of these tools should square fairly well with most "common wisdom" about players--and where they don't, there should be identifiable reasons for the disparity (for example, people until recently haven't paid much attention to walk totals--so guys who are high or low in those areas could easily have been misevaluated).Originally posted by digglahhh
Jim AlbrightSeen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.Comment
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Except that I'm not sure some "common wisdom" is wise (Billy Cox the best defensive 3B, no one was as good as Koufax in the 60s, Snider/JDiMaggio were among the best defensive CF ever ...Originally posted by jalbrightMythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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Incidentally, I have a book coming out hopefully before the end of 2006 about the Hall of Fame called "On the Outside Looking In." I use a sabermetric model, but I think with all models you have to ask yourself a queston: what do you do with the borderline cases? No model can completely answer that question and every voter has biases that help them make the decision. So, the ultimate question is whether you agree with their biases.I am the author of "Checks and Imbalances" and "The State of Baseball Management."Comment
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Agreed as to the principle of your post--but you chopped off the part in my post about where there are disagreements, one using sabermetric methods should be able to explain why the differences exist--and I should add, be able to do so in a persuasive manner that the methods capture reality better.Originally posted by RuthMayBond
Jim AlbrightSeen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.Comment
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Maybe you disagreed about Wynn, but I can't believe you'd call it unsubstantianted. At least I made it extremely clear why I believed Wynn was HOF worthy, and gave reasons (countless ones, so much I was almost sick at the end of it).. The case against Frank Thomas was more like "I saw him and he didn't look like a HOFer, and he didn't hit as many home runs as this guy or this guy."Originally posted by digglahhhComment
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This was a real beaut, and as I recall, there was a consensus of only Dodger fans that he was the greatest defensive 3B ever.Originally posted by RuthMayBondRed, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.Comment
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I admit I have no idea what I'm talking about here.Comment
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I do think Jimmy Wynn is an interesting case. When you translate his numbers it is really interesting. For myself, I just chalk him up as someone that could have been recognized as a great player if he had played for a good team in a hitter friendly stadium. Often times, players are more victims of circumstance than anything else. To say Frank Thomas is not a Hall of Famer is at this point ludicrous. Unless he's found out and admits to taking steroids that should go into a baboon you have to take his numbers from the 1990s at face value.I am the author of "Checks and Imbalances" and "The State of Baseball Management."Comment
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