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  • #16
    Lou Whitaker

    Do you think Lou Whitaker got as much attention as he deserved from the HOF committee? I'm not saying he should have gotten in, but if memory serves, he was dismissed pretty quickly.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by George H Ruth View Post
      Do you think Lou Whitaker got as much attention as he deserved from the HOF committee? I'm not saying he should have gotten in, but if memory serves, he was dismissed pretty quickly.
      The guy was among the best second basemen in the league for years. It'd be more baffling if it weren't par for the course, as comparable second basemen, like Grich, Randolph and White, also were ignored.
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      • #18
        There's some debate over whether he should be a HOFer (I'd vote for him, by the way), but I think we can all agree that he deserved a lot more attention, along with the second basemen Captain mentioned. There seems to be an entire generation of pre-steroid era players whose accomplishments were overlooked because they didn't hit for power by steroid era standards, and also perhaps because they played during a time of waning popularity in the sport, so they never reached the level of stardom they deserved.

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        • #19
          The guy is most deserving of HoF consideration. To be a "one-and-done" guy is a blackeye for the BBWAA.
          Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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          • #20
            threads merged
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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            • #21
              It seems like Sweet Lou wants all three of them to go in at the same time!

              http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2pZcwUmfb
              Your Second Base Coach
              Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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              • #22
                Whitaker definitely belongs in the HoF. Outside of his solid all-around play he was a centerpiece for a Tiger resurgence, is part of one of the most iconic double play duo's of all-time and had superlative character as far as I know. Hell, Tinker and Evers are in. Whitaker also put up about the same numbers as Billy Herman but in a much, much lower offensive era and against better competition. Outhit Joe Gordon, outhit Nellie Fox, outhit Red Schoendienst. He's a lot better than Bobby Doerr too. Wouldn't even be close to the worst second baseman in the HoF.
                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                  Whitaker definitely belongs in the HoF. Outside of his solid all-around play he was a centerpiece for a Tiger resurgence, is part of one of the most iconic double play duo's of all-time and had superlative character as far as I know. Hell, Tinker and Evers are in. Whitaker also put up about the same numbers as Billy Herman but in a much, much lower offensive era and against better competition. Outhit Joe Gordon, outhit Nellie Fox, outhit Red Schoendienst. He's a lot better than Bobby Doerr too. Wouldn't even be close to the worst second baseman in the HoF.
                  And notice that 77% of people polled say that Lou was a "maybe" or "yes" with not a single mention of Wins Above Replacement on the entire thread. Just one post with a passing mention of WARP and Win Shares. Most of these votes were from 2008, before WAR was even a thing. Whitaker certainly seems to have his fair share of supporters from all over the place.
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                  • #24
                    I thought for sure that Whitaker and Trammel were HOFers when they were actually playing. Back then, the back of their baseball cards were my primary source for analysis. Today, I look at more advanced stats and still view both as HOFers. Both were great players who got shafted.

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                    • #25
                      I'm not sure why I never posted in this thread until now, but yes, yes, a thousand times yes, Lou Whitaker should be a HOFer.

                      The consensus around BBF at least is that the two best unenshrined second basemen are Whitaker and Bobby Grich, in some order. While I favor Grich for the HOF, I can at least understand why others less versed in modern sabermetrics might be skeptical. On the other hand, I can't fathom why anyone, traditionalist, neo-saber, or whatever, can justify not supporting Whitaker.

                      He simply checks all the boxes one needs to be a HOFer from the middle infield from just about any angle one wants to look at it.

                      The sole weakness in Whitaker's game, in my opinion, was he never hit lefties very well. It's fair to treat that as a demerit. On the other hand, a lot of left-handed hitters would need to get the boot from Cooperstown if that were sufficient to disqualify one from a plaque.
                      Last edited by Cougar; 04-14-2014, 06:47 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Whitaker would have been helped if he and Trammell had retired the same year. That was the plan, but Trammell opted to come back for one more season. Where I don't necessarily believe that Whitaker would have made the HOF if that had happened (or Trammell, for that matter), I think that Whitaker would have avoided "one-and-done" by pulling through on Trammell's coattails. These guys were so much seen as a unit that I believe they'd both have avoided elimination if they had been on the ballot together.
                        "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                        NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                          Whitaker would have been helped if he and Trammell had retired the same year. That was the plan, but Trammell opted to come back for one more season. Where I don't necessarily believe that Whitaker would have made the HOF if that had happened (or Trammell, for that matter), I think that Whitaker would have avoided "one-and-done" by pulling through on Trammell's coattails. These guys were so much seen as a unit that I believe they'd both have avoided elimination if they had been on the ballot together.
                          If Whitaker had signed with the Braves and not retired as a Tiger, as he came close to doing, I wonder how much better he actually would have done in the voting, especially if he was able to make a solid contribution for Atlanta.

                          The voters did not look at Whitaker, or Grich, as compared to other second baseman. That's why they were stiffed on the ballot, I believe.
                          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                            I'm not sure why I never posted in this thread until now, but yes, yes, a thousand times yes, Lou Whitaker should be a HOFer.

                            The consensus around BBF at least is that the two best unenshrined second basemen are Whitaker and Bobby Grich, in some order. While I favor Grich for the HOF, I can at least understand why others less versed in modern sabermetrics might be skeptical. On the other hand, I can't fathom why anyone, traditionalist, neo-saber, or whatever, can justify not supporting Whitaker.

                            He simply checks all the boxes one needs to be a HOFer from the middle infield from just about any angle one wants to look at it.

                            The sole weakness in Whitaker's game, in my opinion, was he never hit lefties very well. It's fair to treat that as a demerit. On the other hand, a lot of left-handed hitters would need to get the boot from Cooperstown if that were sufficient to disqualify one from a plaque.
                            The worst thing guys like Santo, Whitaker, Grich and Trammel could have done is play in the expansion era's. The hate the player mentality is too strong. The best thing a player can do for his HoF candidacy is to play in, or before, the black & white television era. These 4 couldn't pull it off. Santo nearly did though. They just couldn't live up to the standards Kiki Cuyler and Bill Terry set. Hopefully the rest get in via the VC like Santo but not before it's too late to enjoy it.
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                              The worst thing guys like Santo, Whitaker, Grich and Trammel could have done is play in the expansion era's. The hate the player mentality is too strong. The best thing a player can do for his HoF candidacy is to play in, or before, the black & white television era. These 4 couldn't pull it off. Santo nearly did though. They just couldn't live up to the standards Kiki Cuyler and Bill Terry set. Hopefully the rest get in via the VC like Santo but not before it's too late to enjoy it.
                              It's hard to believe, but it's only recently that stats are truly put in context. In 1970, folks REALLY thought that the best hitters were all gone; after all, neither league could come up with 10 .300 hitters each and the AL almost had a .299 batting champion in 1968.

                              It was in that context that Chick Hafey and Jim Bottomley and Ross Youngs and Freddie Lindstrom made the HOF. Those guys all hit .300 for their career; there was not much of a hue and cry at the time of their induction because, after all, Chick Hafey hit .317 lifetime, and that was looking mighty good next to Al Kaline's and Mickey Mantle's .298. (Mantle went way down in the estimation of some because he finished under .300.) Indeed, if cronyism was more widespread, Dixie Walker and his .306 BA would be in the HOF. (Kelly, however, was criticized because he only hit .296 lifetime.)

                              Garvey finished under .300 BA lifetime. That, more than anything else, killed his HOF candidacy. I firmly believe that if Garvey had hit .300 lifetime, he'd be in the HOF; he'd have kicked and kicked until the door gave way. Hitting .300 may have not required him to have been a better player than he was, but he WOULD have done it had he played his entire career in Boston.
                              "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                              NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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                              • #30
                                Any supporter of Lou Whitaker for the Hall of Fame will LOVE this:

                                http://blitzkrieg13.com/2014/12/13/2...ballot-part-2/

                                Keep in mind Sweet Lou was not even on the ballot!
                                Your Second Base Coach
                                Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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