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  • #31
    I thought I'd bump this thread up. I believe that Whitaker's HoF candidacy highlights the debate as to what exactly constitutes a Hall of Famer. There's probably general agreement that Whitaker didn't have a high peak. He showed unusual consistency, though. WAR shows he was consistent. Whitaker wasn't great at one thing but did so many things well enough to produce lots of value. I suppose the main question is whether that consistency was at a high enough level to be Hall of Fame caliber?


    Whitaker WAR.jpg
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 09-19-2020, 07:41 PM.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
      I thought I'd bump this thread up. I believe that Whitaker's HoF candidacy highlights the debate as to what exactly constitutes a Hall of Famer. There's probably general agreement that Whitaker didn't have a high peak. He showed unusual consistency, though. WAR shows he was consistent. Whitaker wasn't great at one thing but did so many things well enough to produce lots of value. I suppose the main question is whether that consistency was at a high enough level to be Hall of Fame caliber.


      Whitaker WAR.jpg
      Nice bump Honus, on a pretty short list of best non BBWAA eligible candidates. He also scores similarly excellent with DRA WAR and Tom Thress. He rates +4 wins on clutch value over his career. The latest from the single ballot HOF has 41/46 fans, 89%.
      Last edited by Jar of Flies; 09-18-2020, 05:41 PM.
      Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
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      • #33
        Whitaker is the type of guy who only seems like HOFer if you believe that the only qualification is that the player obtains a certain amount of 'value' through various means via some complex math formula. He played 19 seasons and only had one season where he received any MVP support at all. That is not a HOFer.

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        • #34
          That really doesn't describe how I come to the conclusion of who is and who isn't a HOFer and I've had him safely in since about 1990.
          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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          • #35
            A 2019 fangraphs article...

            https://blogs.fangraphs.com/lou-whit...n-cooperstown/
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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            • #36
              Where’s Whitaker? Eight Theories on a Hall of Fame Snub
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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              • #37
                https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...d-double-play/
                Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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                • #38
                  I don't think Whitaker's a Hall Of Famer, but I didn't realize he was one-and-done with only 15 votes. He certainly deserved better than that. Like his contemporary Kenny Lofton, he was brushed aside with hardly a thought, it would seem.
                  They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by willshad View Post
                    Whitaker is the type of guy who only seems like HOFer if you believe that the only qualification is that the player obtains a certain amount of 'value' through various means via some complex math formula. He played 19 seasons and only had one season where he received any MVP support at all. That is not a HOFer.
                    Yup...the only guys who seem like Hall of Famers are the players who produce a certain amount of value on the diamond through their hitting, fielding, running and pitching. Who knew? Thank God Ruth, Cobb, Mays and Aaron didn't do any such thing or they may not have been elected!
                    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                      Yup...the only guys who seem like Hall of Famers are the players who produce a certain amount of value on the diamond through their hitting, fielding, running and pitching. Who knew? Thank God Ruth, Cobb, Mays and Aaron didn't do any such thing or they may not have been elected!
                      Don't you know, Whitaker was a scrub!

                      He could not hit his way out of a bag (oh, wait, he had well over 2000 hits and slashed .276/.363/.426 with a 117 ERA+. Turns out he could)
                      He was not good defensively (oh, wait, he was part of one of the most productive double play batteries of all time and is top 20 all time defensively at his position; nevermind that)
                      He was never seen as a future HOFer (well...not true as he and Trammell were both referred to as future HOFers before they retired)
                      He was never an all star (except for the 5 times he was)

                      Yeah, he needs some convoluted stat to push him over the top. He was a hack!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                        Yup...the only guys who seem like Hall of Famers are the players who produce a certain amount of value on the diamond through their hitting, fielding, running and pitching. Who knew? Thank God Ruth, Cobb, Mays and Aaron didn't do any such thing or they may not have been elected!
                        Guys like Whitaker and Grich are exactly the reasons why HOF qualification shouldn't be seen as a big math equation. Pretty much nobody saw Whitaker as a potential HOFer when he was active...he was just a good player who was part of great teams, much like Wille Randolph, Davey Lopes, Paul O'neill, or even his teammates like Lance Parrish, Chet Lemon, or Darrell Evans. LIke I said, he only had any MVP votes at all exactly one time. He was one and done with only 2.9% of the vote on his only ballot appearance, about the same as teammates Gibson and Parrish in the same election. His HOF worthiness is a sabermetric 'discovery', which, again, offers proof why a purely mathematical approach is faulty.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by willshad View Post
                          Pretty much nobody saw Whitaker as a potential HOFer when he was active...
                          You can keep typing that until you turn blue but it's not going to make it true.

                          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by willshad View Post

                            Guys like Whitaker and Grich are exactly the reasons why HOF qualification shouldn't be seen as a big math equation. Pretty much nobody saw Whitaker as a potential HOFer when he was active...he was just a good player who was part of great teams, much like Wille Randolph, Davey Lopes, Paul O'neill, or even his teammates like Lance Parrish, Chet Lemon, or Darrell Evans. LIke I said, he only had any MVP votes at all exactly one time. He was one and done with only 2.9% of the vote on his only ballot appearance, about the same as teammates Gibson and Parrish in the same election. His HOF worthiness is a sabermetric 'discovery', which, again, offers proof why a purely mathematical approach is faulty.
                            I think a person could reasonably not think Lou a HOFer (especially if they have a more elite HOF), but Willshad, I lived through the era he played. I saw in the paper and heard in the media him referred to a future HOFer numerous times. Rarely or ever did I hear conflicting opinions (after some said/wrote he was a future HOFer).

                            He might or might not deserve to be HOFer, but people at the time thought/wrote he was.


                            Grich mostly was before my time, but I don't recall anyone suggesting he was a future HOFer. But as I said, it is possible. The earliest mention I saw at the time was the Bill James Abstracts, but he was mostly on an island by himself with his love of Grich.
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                              You can keep typing that until you turn blue but it's not going to make it true.
                              His one and done with 2.9% of the vote tends to agree with me.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

                                I think a person could reasonably not think Lou a HOFer (especially if they have a more elite HOF), but Willshad, I lived through the era he played. I saw in the paper and heard in the media him referred to a future HOFer numerous times. Rarely or ever did I hear conflicting opinions (after some said/wrote he was a future HOFer).

                                He might or might not deserve to be HOFer, but people at the time thought/wrote he was.


                                Grich mostly was before my time, but I don't recall anyone suggesting he was a future HOFer. But as I said, it is possible. The earliest mention I saw at the time was the Bill James Abstracts, but he was mostly on an island by himself with his love of Grich.
                                How do you explain his poor showing in the HOF voting then?

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