Rice versus Perez

[Professor]

You'll excuse my inherent bias, but if Tony Perez is in -- and that was questionable to me-- James Edward Rice is a Hall of Famer, folks.

-Prof

[leecemark]

If Jesse Haines is in Dave Stewart should be in
If Ray Schalk is in Bob Boone should be in
If George Kelly is in Bill Buckner should be in
If Bill Mazeroski is in Frank White should be in
If Fred Lindsrom is in Bill Madlock should be in

--In every one of these examples, the comp is reasonable. The guys not in are arguably as good or better as the Hall of Famer. However, none of them deserves to be in the Hall. One mistake does not justify another.
-- I think Rice has a decent case on his own merits. Not a great one, but you can argue it and not look foolish. You might even convince someone. Saying he deserves to be in because Perez is in isn't going to convince anybody though. If we let in everybody who is better than the worst guy in the Hall they'd need to add a couple new wings.

[J W]

Very concise and well, er, said, leecemark.

Tony Perez is one of those 2700+ hits candidates we discussed in another thread, who happened to slip through the BBWAA via his 505 doubles and gaudy 1652 R'sBI. I can consider him a HOFer only if I compare him to other players at his position--primarily first base--and even then there are a number of guys I'd put in first (Will Clark, for example... and certainly Dick Allen given the chance). Nonetheless it appears he did just enough to merit election by the board. Can't blame him on the Vet's Committee... Perez is about as close to the modern-day borderline as there is.

9778 AB
OPS .804 / 122 OPS+
BI: 0 / GI: 129 / Std: 40.7 / Mon: 81.0

Jim Rice on the other hand, scores an 821 similarity with Perez, which is not too remarkable considering they played mostly at the same time. Perez's closest comp is actually Harold Baines, of the DH fame... while Rice is most comparable to Orlando Cepeda. Here are his numbers:

8225 AB
OPS .854 / 128 OPS+
BI: 33 / GI: 176 / Std: 42.9 / Mon: 146.5

Rice is higher in everything, in less at-bats, than Perez. He has an AL MVP, two more top ten finishes than Perez and one more all-star appearance. The only thing Perez nails him in is rote stats, and not by much in anything except doubles. Rice even pelted three more HRs (382-379), but who's counting that...

In any case, it's difficult to compare infielders to outfielders... but not as much if you stick to LF and 1B I suppose. So, despite all the groans from the Jamesian crowd, any HOF that has Tony Perez solidly in gets my Jim Rice vote. Neither of them are pressing needs in my book however. Perez still rode the Big Red Machine and Rice still benefited greatly from his home park.

stats as usual grabbed from baseball-reference.com

[Cougar]

Ditto to Leecemark and JW. Rice belongs on his own merits.

I think Perez was a perfectly good choice by the voters myself, but the "if...then" argument is always a dodgy one and a particularly strained one here.

[Professor]

First off, let me say that I am brand new to this forum and I'm both impressed and delighted at the intelligence of the banter I've seen. I'm liking this.

Back to the matter at hand.....

Leecemark makes a cogent argument that is well taken. As my buddy Bill O'Reilly always says, "You cannot justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior." That said, I am simply angling for consistency. I do believe Rice belongs, however I actually could be swayed in the opposite direction if player of Perez's ilk were not enshrined. True, if you took my argument to heart, you'd have to let a whole slew of additional players in. But if a modicum of consistency is maintained, then we'd cease to have an issue. If it can be argued that playing in the same era, Rice and Perez put up similar numbers, either they're both in or they're both out. That's my point.

I am of the persuasion that it should be quite difficult for ballplayers to make it into the Hall. The distinction and prestige of the institution should always be preserved. However I do not think, as some do, that practically nobody else (who isn't already in) deserves enshrinement. I really have to laugh when a guy like a Ryan or a Carlton or a Seaver does not receive 100% of the available vote. Which HOF voter, in their right mind, could make an argument against these guys? But obviously, at least a few writers see fit to vote NO.....for everyone, no matter who it is. Fodder for a whole other thread, though.

-Prof

[dgarza]

I would have been under the impression that Rice would have gotten more support than Perez. That never happened.

[Professor]

True enough. It's well known that during his playing days, Rice didn't exactly endear himself to media types, some of whom regarded him as surly and uncooperative. I honestly think his exclusion thus far can been attributed to grudges that writers still carry.

[four tool]

Rice is not a hall of famer. Ted Williams said he was a good, not a great hitter, and he didn't walk much. Perez made it because he had 12--count em-12 straight 90+ Rbi years, and that wasn't easy in that era and he was part of the Big Red Machine. Rice had about 4 really good years and some decent ones, but he is NOT one of the all time greats. Perez may not be either, but I don't see the comparison given Tony's consistency over more than a decade.

[dgarza]

Rice had about 4 really good years and some decent ones, .

Perez GREAT years 69-70-73

Rice GREAT years 77-78-79-83-86

[DoubleX]

I've gotten the impression that Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, and Mike Schmidt, all former Perez teammates, and all people in very good standing with the Hall of Fame and baseball in general, campaign hard for their former comrades (Pete Rose being a very good example). I think Perez' association with these huge baseball names probably helped him a great deal in getting past the voters. I think Fame by association can really help some borderline candidates. What made the Big Red Machine so big and great? Two hall of famers? No, that's not enough. Three, if you count Rose? What about Four? Four Hall of Famers would definitely cement the legacy of the Big Red Machine. On the other side, Jim Rice has only his numbers outside of Carlton Fisk and some painful losses to the Big Red Machine and the Yankees.

[dgarza]

What made the Big Red Machine so big and great? Two hall of famers? No, that's not enough. Three, if you count Rose? What about Four? Four Hall of Famers would definitely cement the legacy of the Big Red Machine.

Let's see....Bench...Morgan...you gotta count Rose (he was a future HOF when he played, and is only not in 'cause of his manager days and nights)...Anderson (can't overlook how he used what he had)...(do you really want to count Brennaman?)...then Perez...a bit more than 2

[Cougar]

Let's see....Bench...Morgan...you gotta count Rose (he was a future HOF when he played, and is only not in 'cause of his manager days and nights)...Anderson (can't overlook how he used what he had)...(do you really want to count Brennaman?)...then Perez...a bit more than 2

Don't forget Davey Concepcion knocking on the door.

[dgarza]

Don't forget Davey Concepcion knocking on the door.

I'd didn't want to get into that, but sure...'though I would say he's knocking all that loud

[Cougar]

I'd didn't want to get into that, but sure...'though I would say he's knocking all that loud

No, but if what you say about Bench & Morgan on the VC is true (and it certainly seems to be), his knocking will get louder when he hits that ballot.

[dgarza]

No, but if what you say about Bench & Morgan on the VC is true (and it certainly seems to be), his knocking will get louder when he hits that ballot.

Maybe it was someone else who said something about Bench and Morgan on the VC, not me, but if that IS so, then we'll see.