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The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 3 – 1870s/80s/90s/00s

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  • The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 3 – 1870s/80s/90s/00s

    Welcome to The Ultimate Quest for Candidates – Round 3. This thread will have the second poll in the third round, combining the leading players from the polls for the 1870’s-80’s and the 1890’s-1900’s. Refer to the Round 1 threads for discussion and links to biographies.

    There will be 14 players on the ballot. You will be asked to vote for 5 (FIVE) players. These 11 players automatically advanced to this round by their top finishes in the Round 2 polls:

    Rd.1 Rd.2
    85% 93% Bill Dahlen
    100% 81% Deacon White
    92% 72% George Van Haltren
    100% 69% Ross Barnes
    82% 67% Jimmy Sheckard
    65% 56% Paul Hines
    92% 50% Jimmy Ryan
    78% 50% Tommy Leach
    93% 44% Joe Start
    65% 38% Harry Stovey
    62% 38% Bob Caruthers

    We need to decide who will get the other three spots on the ballot. There are nine runners-up who are under consideration:

    79% 44% Cupid Childs
    65% 31% Tony Mullane
    61% 31% Pete Browning
    48% 31% Charlie Bennett
    39% 31% George Gore
    63% 28% Herman Long
    22% 27% Johnny Kling
    60% 25% Dickey Pearce
    51% 21% Mike Donlin

    My personal picks are probably Gore, Bennett and Childs. Your input on this issue is strongly requested as we look to develop a consensus.

    Below are the players we voted as the top 20 HOF candidates whose careers centered from 1865 to 1909.
    Code:
    Pos	BJ	Player Name	 Win Shares	  WARP3
    4	---	Ross	Barnes	 1868-81	(71.9: 14.9-12.0-11.8)
    1	#88	Bob  Caruthers	(337: 57-54-51)	(62.3: 12.0-11.5-9.4)
    6	#21	Bill	Dahlen 	(426: 37-33-27)	(127.9: 10.4-9.5-9.0)
    8	#53	Paul	Hines	(249: 28-22-19)	(105.3: 11.8-10.3-8.9)
    5/8	#20	Tommy	Leach	(334: 31-30-29)	(86.3: 9.4-8.2-8.2)
    8/9	#26	Jimmy	Ryan	(351: 37-29-28)	(84.5: 8.8-8.5-6.4)
    7	#24	Jimmy  Sheckard	(353: 37-37-30)	(93.5: 10.8-9.7-9.4)
    3	#107	Joe	Start	 1862-86	(67.5: 7.1-6.5-6.3)
    7/3	#39	Harry	Stovey	(265: 28-28-26)	(76.6: 9.4-9.2-8.3)
    8	#28	Geo Van Haltren (359: 29-28-27)	(82.2: 7.8-7.5-6.8)
    5/2	#76	Deacon	White	 1869-90	(110.1: 10.6-10.1-9.6)
    at-large candidates					
    2	#49	Charlie	Bennett	(157: 19-18-15)	(79.3: 10.1-9.9-9.6)
    8/7	#38	Pete  Browning	(225: 30-28-23)	(63.7: 9.3-8.5-7.9)
    4	#26	Cupid	Childs 	(263: 33-33-32)	(80.8: 12.0-11.0-8.4)
    8	#52	Mike	Donlin	(180: 36-31-26)	(44.8: 10.1-9.8-6.0)
    8	#40	George	Gore	(250: 30-26-24)	(91.9: 11.7-9.5-8.8)
    2	#48	Johnny	Kling	(160: 24-22-21)	(55.4: 8.7-8.2-7.7)
    6	#34	Herman	Long 	(292: 32-31-28)	(78.7: 10.0-7.5-7.2)
    1	#82	Tony	Mullane	(399: 58-55-46)	(46.3: 7.1-6.5-6.3)
    6	---	Dickey	Pearce	 1856-77
    Pos – primary position(s)
    BJ – rank at his position in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2001)
    Win Shares – shown are career total and best 3 years
    WARP3 – from Baseball Prospectus; shown are career total and best 3 years

    Some other things to be aware of:
    1) Bill James’ rankings emphasize players’ peak years; this results in long steady careers being rated lower than what may seem right.
    2) For 1890s and 1900s players, win shares in seasons before 1904 are increased to adjust them to a 154-game season (actually, to a 152-decision level). For 1870's/80's players, win shares are “raw”, straight from the book. Before the poll is up, I hope to get a chance to post adjusted numbers for Hines, Stovey, Caruthers, Bennett, Browning and Gore.
    3) You should look to credit these players with minor league or pre-professional play. I have not systematically attempted this.
    4) The latest WARP revision modified the numbers of the 1890's/1900's players from the Round 2 thread.

    That leaves 10 players that dropped out of consideration after Round 2: Lave Cross, Jack Glasscock, Dummy Hoy, Fielder Jones, Cal McVey, Hardy Richardson, Cy Seymour, Ezra Sutton, Roy Thomas and Mike Tiernan. Each of these candidates drew less than 16% support in Round 2.
    80
    Ross Barnes
    12.50%
    10
    Charlie Bennett
    6.25%
    5
    Bob Caruthers
    6.25%
    5
    Cupid Childs
    0.00%
    0
    Bill Dahlen
    15.00%
    12
    George Gore
    1.25%
    1
    Paul Hines
    13.75%
    11
    Tommy Leach
    0.00%
    0
    Tony Mullane
    7.50%
    6
    Jimmy Ryan
    1.25%
    1
    Jimmy Sheckard
    0.00%
    0
    Joe Start
    6.25%
    5
    Harry Stovey
    8.75%
    7
    George Van Haltren
    6.25%
    5
    Deacon White
    15.00%
    12

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Freakshow; 06-02-2008, 09:53 AM.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    Bennett, Gore, Childs. The first two are guys I may even vote for in this round.

    Of the others, Mullane and Pearce are both HOFers to me but not in the same class as Bennett and Gore.
    Last edited by jjpm74; 06-02-2008, 11:05 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Childs, Mullane, Bennett and Gore, though not in that precise order.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #4
        jim named four, which I will balance by naming only two

        George Gore and Charlie Bennett
        - both worth considering for a vote in round three. I am leaning to Start over Gore but I may lean the other way.
        Last edited by Paul Wendt; 06-02-2008, 01:44 PM. Reason: trim

        Comment


        • #5
          Tony Mullane was not as good as Mickey Welch. Three of Mullane's four big seasons were in the first three years of the AA, when it was scarcely more than a minor league. When analyzing stars of that league's early years, you need to take some of the air out of their stats.

          Check out Mullane at Baseball Prospectus for Clay Davenport's WARP3 massive deflation of Mullane's early years.
          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

          Comment


          • #6
            --Bennett, Pearce and Gore

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't disagree with Childs. If Welch were not in the Hall of Fame he probably would have been a round two winner or I would be listing him with middling alternatives here.

              Frankly I prefer Glasscock, Sutton, and Richardson (2, 1, and 0 votes in round two) to Browning, Childs, Mullane, Pearce, and Welch.

              Only Donlin would be a gross mistake if suddenly elected in Cooperstown.

              [bold marks those who are on the bubble. I'll edit this later by deleting the boldface and six of the names. --deleted from the table only, it turns out to be five rather than six. -ed.]

              edit:
              bold = not in the Baseball-Fever Hall of Fame (one cycle ends midnight Friday 06/06)
              underline = not in the Hall of Merit at BaseballThinkFactory.
              Code:
              LF		CF		RF
              Sheckard	Gore		Ryan -cf
              Stovey -1b	Hines
              		Van Haltren	
              
              3B		SS		2B		1B
              Leach		Dahlen		Barnes		Start
              				Childs
              P
              Caruthers -rf
              Mullane
              
              C
              Bennett
              White -3b
              delete: Donlin, Browning, Long, Kling, Pearce

              Bill Dahlen and Johnny Kling reaped greater shares of the vote in round two than in round one.
              Paul Hines and George Gore challenged their remarkably low round one shares. Here's hoping they both do better in round three.
              Last edited by Paul Wendt; 06-05-2008, 09:49 AM. Reason: delete five to match the final ballot, revise markup, add links

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                jim named four, which I will balance by naming only two

                George Gore and Charlie Bennett
                - both worth considering for a vote in round three. I am leaning to Start over Gore but I may lean the other way.
                Somehow, I thought it was four. I'd drop Mullane from my group to get to three.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                  Somehow, I thought it was four. I'd drop Mullane from my group to get to three.
                  Well, it was scheduled to be four, but a tie in the 70-80s passed through an extra player to the automatic list.
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Easy...Browning, Mullane, & Gore

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      1. Tony Mullane
                      2. George Gore
                      ------------------ <--- HUGE gap
                      3. Charlie Bennett
                      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1. George Gore
                        2. Cupid Childs
                        3. Pete Browning
                        4. Tony Mullane
                        5. Charlie Bennett

                        Eh, I'm still not sure of the order. Let's just say I support those five rather than the others and I definitely think Gore is the best of this group of would-be candidates.
                        1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                        1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                        1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                        1966 1974 1977 1978


                        1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                        2013 2014


                        1996 2006

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Gore, Mullane, Pearce
                          "It's good to be young and a Giant." - Larry Doyle

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Gore, Bennett, Pearce.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Gore, Bennett, Pearce
                              "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                              - Alvin Dark

                              Comment

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