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  • international players in hof?

    Should international players be able to get into cooperstown (for example Sadaharu Oh) or should they only be able to get into their contrys own HOF. What do you think?
    38
    Yes
    36.84%
    14
    No
    63.16%
    24
    go sox.

    Pigskin-Fever

  • #2
    No. If you had an option regarding whether or not to play in the majors then then answer has to be no.

    Oh had a choice. Guys like Buck Leonard, Hilton Smith, Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells & Mule Suttles had no MLB credentials because the choice did not exist then. As long as you have the choice then you opted not to play against the best competition in the world.

    After 1947 the reasons for not playing in the majors are fear of a strange, unfamiliar culture, lack of initial talent, or a complacency to thrive in a lesser league.

    The rules regarding eligibilty must apply to any who played in the age of choice. You should not waive the 10-year MLB service rule. You cannot combine their accomplishments unless you honestly believe that the other international leagues are even with Major League Baseball.

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    • #3
      Absolutely not. They are not part of our baseball heritage. It is one thing to feel guilty over the Negro League thing, but it is entirely inappropriate to transfer that guilt to another group.
      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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      • #4
        Originally posted by RedSoxVT92
        Should international players be able to get into cooperstown (for example Sadaharu Oh) or should they only be able to get into their contrys own HOF. What do you think?
        NO!!!:grouchy
        How can an International player get in to the United States NATIONAL baseball Hall of Fame?
        1968 and 1984, the greatest ever.

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        • #5
          I would be against their official enshrinement even though we can debate the extent to which they had a choice to join the MLs.

          I wouldn't object to displays highlighting the prowess of international stars though.
          THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

          In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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          • #6
            the hof should have nice displays of the significant international baseball organizations which highlight the stars and history of the game there - however there is no reason to induct them into the hof proper

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            • #7
              Isn't the official title the *national* baseball hall of fame and museum?

              That sort of settles it right there.

              It would be nice to have displays of interenational baseball and how it's spread, but an international one would have to wait for another place. Actually, the Docminican Republic would be a nice place for one, considering the love of baseball in Latin America, and the number of players in the majors. (Though there are doubtlessly other places where people can think of it beloning, such as Japan.)
              If Baseball Integrated Early - baseball integrated from the beginning - and "Brotherhood and baseball," the U.S. history companion, at http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Baseballifsandmore - IBIE updated for 2011.

              "Full House Chronology" at yahoo group fullhousefreaks & fullhouse4life with help of many fans, thanks for the input

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              • #8
                So long as Cooperstown remains the home of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum...no.
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RobertHConner
                  No. If you had an option regarding whether or not to play in the majors then then answer has to be no.

                  Oh had a choice. Guys like Buck Leonard, Hilton Smith, Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells & Mule Suttles had no MLB credentials because the choice did not exist then. As long as you have the choice then you opted not to play against the best competition in the world.

                  After 1947 the reasons for not playing in the majors are fear of a strange, unfamiliar culture, lack of initial talent, or a complacency to thrive in a lesser league.

                  The rules regarding eligibilty must apply to any who played in the age of choice. You should not waive the 10-year MLB service rule. You cannot combine their accomplishments unless you honestly believe that the other international leagues are even with Major League Baseball.
                  False. From 1965 until Nomo's arrival in 1995, MLB had an agreement with Japanese baseball to respect their reserve clause, which meant those players who signed with Japanese teams were the property of those Japanese teams indefinitely. Read Whiting's The Meaning of Ichiro to confirm this point.

                  Jim Albright
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chancellor
                    So long as Cooperstown remains the home of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum...no.
                    My response to the "National" argument (i.e. the "National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum") is first that this argument is essentially irrelevant, in that including worthy international players is in all honesty a matter of choice. The mission statement can be changed on a whim and carries no compulsive force on what the Hall will choose to do in the future. It only embodies the goals of the institution as of the last time it was altered.

                    Baseball's supposed ideals which run counter to the idea of perpetuating the exclusion of Japanese players who have been limited or prevented from competing in MLB by virtue of a business decision by MLB to allow Japanese teams to tie up Japanese players. The sport of baseball's ideals declare it is open to all those with the talent to compete in the game at the level in question. This is true whether we are talking about baseball as a whole or only American baseball. Perhaps these these ideals are not honored in practice--but if that is true, should we blindly turn our backs on those ideals? I think not.

                    Furthermore, the name of the institution could be changed rather easily and quickly if the Hall chose to, just like businesses can and do change their names.

                    For even more on why I think the Hall should be expanded to include worthy international players, please see this article: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...bright341.html

                    I'm sure I'm going to catch the usual amount of flak over this stance, but I won't be in a position to respond for a couple of days.

                    Jim Albright
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RobertHConner
                      No. If you had an option regarding whether or not to play in the majors then then answer has to be no.

                      Oh had a choice. Guys like Buck Leonard, Hilton Smith, Pop Lloyd, Willie Wells & Mule Suttles had no MLB credentials because the choice did not exist then. As long as you have the choice then you opted not to play against the best competition in the world.

                      When will this myth finally die? Oh DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE. Japanese players were effectively barred from the majors until 1995. Jim Albright has written about this many times.

                      After 1947 the reasons for not playing in the majors are fear of a strange, unfamiliar culture, lack of initial talent, or a complacency to thrives) in a lesser league.
                      I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. What team would have dared sign a Japanese player right after WW II? They were the hated enemy in a lot of people's minds. Strong anti-Japanese feeling because of the war lasted for many years. If you doubt that, just ask any of the Japanese-Americans that were interned and what they had to deal with after the war.

                      The rules regarding eligibilty must apply to any who played in the age of choice. You should not waive the 10-year MLB service rule. You cannot combine their accomplishments unless you honestly believe that the other international leagues are even with Major League Baseball.
                      Then we can change the rules. For the Negro Leaguers to be inducted the Hall of Fame had to CHANGE THEIR RULES because at the time (1960s) the HoF rules wouldn't allow for Negro leaguers to be inducted. Also, the Negro Leaguers were nowhere near the level of major leagues so the "quality" of league argument is baseless.
                      Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 03-15-2006, 08:08 PM.
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DTF955
                        Isn't the officasial title the *national* baseball hall of fame and museum?

                        That sort of settles it right there.

                        It would be nice to have displays of interenational baseball and how it's spread, but an international one would have to wait for another place. Actually, the Docminican Republic would be a nice place for one, considering the love of baseball in Latin America, and the number of players in the majors. (Though there are doubtlessly other places where people can think of it beloning, such as Japan.)
                        Then change the name to "International". I really don't get the "national" argument basing it on one word. Before the late 1960s, "National" meant only major leaguers, no Negro Leaguers. But guess what, the HoF changed it's charter. Here is an excerpt from a Jim Albright's article:

                        The last argument against Oh we will address is the argument that Cooperstown is the National Hall of Fame and is limited to those who have contributed to the game in North America. First of all, no one in the debate has yet cited anything beyond the name of the institution as proof there is any formal restriction on who the Hall of Fame may honor. Second, even if such a restriction exists, it certainly can be changed about as easily and rapidly as the sudden decision to allow Negro Leaguers to be honored on an equal basis with white major leaguers. Third, the Hall should honor all the best players in the game, no matter where they played or who they played against, because they all have helped to make it the great game it is. Fourth, the game is becoming increasingly international in scope. In 2002, nearly a quarter of the major leaguers were born outside the 50 states. Seventeen different countries are represented in the majors, and a total of 31 in the minors. About half of all minor leaguers were born outside the 50 states. We now have major league all-stars from the Orient, and undoubtedly we will have more. We even allow those outside North America to vote for the major league all-star teams. Under such circumstances, the “National” argument seems to me to be hopelessly parochial and possibly even self-defeating. It certainly looks hypocritical to promote diversity on one hand while denying the game’s highest honor to foreigners who have been subjected to a de facto bar nearly as sacrosanct as the color line was before Jackie Robinson. Even honoring the players in Japanese baseball history who are worthy of Cooperstown seems to be inadequate compensation for siphoning off at least some of Japan’s elite players. Maybe the Japanese wouldn’t have come even if they were given a realistic opportunity to do so, but to deny them plaques in Cooperstown solely on such speculative reasoning is plainly ridiculous.

                        Furthermore, Oh has had a tremendous influence on Japanese baseball as its greatest player, as its goodwill ambassador, and as a successful manager. He came into contact with many major leaguers, and his career has touched present day major league managers like Jim Tracy, Davey Johnson, Charlie Manuel and Bobby Valentine. Isn’t it likely Ichiro learned something from Oh, whether as a youngster or as an opponent of Oh’s teams, or some other way? Oh’s influence upon major league baseball may be small today, but that influence will almost surely grow with the increased influx of Japanese players. Also, listen to Steve Garvey: “ I learned a lot . . . from Sadaharu Oh. I spent some time with him in spring training in 1971, and again in ’75 and ’79. He always talked about the use of his legs as the single biggest asset to his power . . . . You’ve got to use your whole body to hit the ball effectively, not just your arms. That’s the difference between a power hitter and a slap hitter.”

                        The “National” argument is at best a dinosaur doomed to extinction by the existing trend toward international growth in the game. Eventually, the majors will have a permanent presence in Japan, and at that point, baseball will need to please its Japanese fans. When that occurs, the “National” argument will surely fall. It may hold sway until that time, but it is only staving off its eventual losing fate.
                        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                        • #13
                          One other point about this being the "age of choice": even today if a player gets into the Japanese system, he can't come to the majors until he's been there ten years and becomes a free agent or his team agrees to let him come over either by cutting him or by posting him. The majors aren't exactly working hard to find and sign Japanese high schoolers or collegians--so those kids, in order to exercise their so-called "choice" have to defy the existing system and stand up to the societal pressure to conform to go hat in hand to the majors and quite likely get a smaller contract to come to a strange land, often without proper language skills or support. Some "choice".

                          If you want to say that anyone born 1970 and later (or so) has to come to the majors to demonstrate in the majors he is indeed a great player in order to be considered for Cooperstown, I've got no problem with that. We can, as indicated above, fiddle a little with the cutoff date as well.

                          Basically, though, if you don't give any consideration to achievements in Japan, only very rarely will a Japanese player reach the HOF, because few get a chance to come before they are at least 27-28 years old, and often older. If Ichiro gets to 2000 MLB hits with a career MLB average of over .300, I think he's in Cooperstown--but he's not the greatest Japanese player ever. Does putting him in and keeping Oh and some of the others greater than Ichiro out make sense, especially for a game which is finally realizing the wisdom in reaching out to an international audience?

                          Jim Albright
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                          • #14
                            I've been to all of the major Hall of Fames including basketball, football and baseball. The basketball Hall of Fame includes people from different countries, women, and some players that were predominantly college stars. I have no problem with that at all. The NBA has a much better vision of its future in the world than any of the other major sports in the US. I think it makes sense that baseball try to follow the same path. I think they should have an international component to the HOF for players, coaches, and organizers from other countries. I think this mind-set will help to draw more international support. 50 years from now I can picture that there will be Major League baseball teams in several counties in North and South America. IMO someone like Oh is just as deserving as some of the players already in the HOF.
                            "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

                            Rogers Hornsby, 1961

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                            • #15
                              Have there been other countries (besides Japan) with leagueplay remotely close to the major league level? Mexico? Cuba? Are there legitimate Hall-of-Famers being excluded from among their professionals?
                              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                              Comment

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