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  • Careers cut short

    Obviously, HOF standards derive almost solely from the accumulation of gaudy numbers over a lengthy career. But what about special cases, in which a spectacular career ends abruptly, long before its time?

    For instance, if Pedro (I am actually knocking on wood as I type this, for real) blew out his shoulder in his next start and never pitched again, is he a Hall of Famer? In his case, I say yes, unequivocally.

    A-Rod is another player that would be left in this proverbial HOF Limbo. Here again, I vote "yea."

    To me, where human beings are the determinants in the admission process, there will always be a degree of subjectivity; hence the lack of consistency I mentioned in the "Rice vs. Perez" thread. Therefore, sometimes sabermetrics must take a backseat in favor of the Grandchildren Corollary. Take a player that you've actually seen on the field in your lifetime, either live or on TV -- any player at all -- and consider whether or not you'll be telling your grandchildren about him. Unscientific, sure -- but this is baseball, after all.

    Interested to hear other thoughts and perspectives -- and other players who might fit this mold.....

  • #2
    It's happened before, Kirby Puckett being the most recent example, Ralph Kiner, and Joe DiMaggio are some noteworthy examples, and Sandy Koufax is perhaps the best example. I think if Pedro and ARod were forced to retire today, they would both make it. They both have been so good and so dominant throughout their entire careers, and the skills they have displayed during that time are on par with most any other player in history.

    I think Albert Belle will be an interesting example - he's like Ralph Kiner, but his hall chances are likely to be hurt because he's also like Dick Allen, in that he's not portrayed as the most amiable of guys. Belle's shortened career, like Kiner's, is probably worthy of induction, but because of his surly and offstandish demeanor, the voters may hold his shortened career against him, like Dick Allen.

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    • #3
      What about if the player was not called up soon enough, and therefor does

      not have the time put in for the hall, and therefor the numbers for it.

      Specifically I am talking about Edgar Martinez (signed in '82, didn't get a full

      season until '90 because horrible management kept Jim Presley in at Third)

      but I am sure there are many others out there with similar situations. I am

      willing to take SOME considerations into it, but I was wondering what others

      thought on the subject.
      Last edited by Edgartohof; 11-25-2006, 01:54 PM.

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      • #4
        I would hardly call keeping Presley at 3rd until '89 horrible management. If I had a 3rd baseman who was hitting 25+ home runs a year, and 80+ RBI's, I wouldn't get rid of him. 85-87 Presley had those stats, plus he was slugging .430+ as season. What you look for in a 3rd Baseman. Now, he had a bad year in '88, but people have bad years once in a while, so it makes perfect sense to at least keep Presley in '89 to see if it was a fluke year. They got rid of him after that.

        Now, last time I checked, 450+ at bats is pretty close to a full season, if not a full season. He had that in '90, after they got rid of Presley, and before '92, which you're counting as his first full season. So his first full season was '90.

        Now, for what I wanted to say, is pretty much in the same structure as ETTHOF's comments about not making the majors soon enough. What about Ichiro? His first 3 seasons of .310+ AVG and 200+ hits. He's on pace for 234 hits this season, and has a .331 AVG as of now.
        If Ichiro can post 8-10 Seasons of 200+ hits and .300+ AVG, and have a few years at the end of his career of 160+ hits and .280+ AVG, will he be HOF worthy?
        AL East Champions: 1981 1982
        AL Pennant: 1982
        NL Central Champions: 2011
        NL Wild Card: 2008

        "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

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        • #5
          Reasonably young players who would make the Hall if they retired RIGHT NOW.

          Pedro
          A-Rod
          Manny (his domination of the AL and his AMAZING numbers are too good to overlook)
          Nomar and Jeter for being shortstops hitting .315+

          Comment


          • #6
            Nomar's only in his 9th year, he wouldn't be eligable. Also, say he played 3 games in one season prior, he would have only played 6 full seasons in his career, and his defense isn't as good as A-Rods. Nomar is borderline RIGHT NOW value if he was in his 10th season. I'd even go as far as to say that he needs at least 2 more good seasons because of Fenway. He's a righty hitting in a righty's dream park for only 6 full seasons.
            Last edited by The Dude; 06-22-2004, 03:00 PM.
            AL East Champions: 1981 1982
            AL Pennant: 1982
            NL Central Champions: 2011
            NL Wild Card: 2008

            "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

            Comment


            • #7
              I think the HOF requirement of ten years minimum is just fine. If a player has enough seasons to qualify (even if less than ten FULL seasons) he should be eligible for the ballot. Then the voters can decide if his career merits Hall of Fame status.

              Koufax qualified. Puckett qualified. Pedro Martinez is also now qualified.
              But anything LESS than ten seasons should not qualify -- no matter what.
              (To my knowledge, NO ONE with less than ten years service has ever been voted as a player into the HOF. Why start now?)

              Of course, getting on the ballot is just the first step. Next comes the hard part -- convincing 3/4 of the voters that you belong there!
              Last edited by Appling; 06-22-2004, 03:13 PM.
              Luke

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              • #8
                I'm not sure if he would have made the Hall but Mike Easler was HORRIBLY mismanaged
                Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                • #9
                  Addie Joss played nine years (1902-1910) before he was stricken with disease (Bright's disease if I remember right, a kidney ailment) and died in April 1911.

                  In his case, the 10 year requirement was waived and he was (deservedly) put in the Hall.

                  I don't think there's another case of one inducted for his accomplishments in the major leagues as a player who had less than 10 seasons. Of course there are Negro Leaguers, managers, executives, umpires, pioneers, etc.

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                  • #10
                    If you take out Nomar's fluke road average last year, he is a .321 road hitter.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I went to check on Ichiro's age, thinking he was 33-34. He's 30. Which basically makes my question about what if he doesn't make it to 10 years moot, since he's already in year 4.

                      But he's 30...still very much in the prime of his career for a position player, and now well-established in the Major Leagues. Scary to think that his best year(s) may be ahead of him....
                      I'm out there Jerry and I'm loving every minute of it!
                      -Cosmo Kramer

                      Reporter: What do you call that hair style you're wearing?
                      George Harrison: Arthur
                      -A Hard Day's Night

                      People often ask me how I want to be remembered. I tell them that to be remembered at all is pretty special.
                      -Cal Ripken, Jr.

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                      • #12
                        I think if Ichiro can finish with a career average over .310 (it's at .328 and rising right now), and continue to be a force on the basepaths and a table setter at the top of the order as well as a very good outfielder with a gun of an arm, he'll get in the hall and be recognized as the first great Japanese position player to make it over here. He's really a unique force in today's game - a throwback type player. Plus, his success has helped to globalize Major League Baseball and has opened the door for what will no doubt be a growing influx of good Japanese and other Asian players. If there is a Baseball World Cup in the near future, I think Ichiro's success over here will have played a big part in bringing about a World Cup so soon.
                        Last edited by DoubleX; 06-22-2004, 03:56 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Appling
                          (To my knowledge, NO ONE with less than ten years service has ever been voted as a player into the HOF. Why start now?)
                          Addie Joss is the only person inducted into the Hall of Fame as a player (not associated with the Negro Leagues) with less than 10 years of major league play.

                          Al Spalding had only 8 years, but I believe he was inducted as a pioneer instead of as a player.

                          Amos Rusie makes it by the skin of his teeth... pitched in a grand total of 3 games in his tenth and final season. Similarly, Ross Youngs played in 7 games his first season, then had 9 more seasons of play. Dizzy Dean has 12 years, but in 3 of them he pitched only 1 game.

                          Originally posted by Professor
                          For instance, if Pedro (I am actually knocking on wood as I type this, for real) blew out his shoulder in his next start and never pitched again, is he a Hall of Famer? In his case, I say yes, unequivocally.

                          A-Rod is another player that would be left in this proverbial HOF Limbo. Here again, I vote "yea."
                          If A-Rod retired today, it'd be similar to Junior Griffey having retired in 1999... guaranteed yes. He was just THAT good for the beginning of his career... Ralph Kiner dominated for ten years and got in, and ARod's better than Kiner.

                          As far as Pedro goes... I'd be willing to go so far as to say that if Pedro had retired after injuring his arm in the 2001 season, he'd be a more than likely Hall of Famer.
                          "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                          Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ElHalo
                            If A-Rod retired today, it'd be similar to Junior Griffey having retired in 1999... guaranteed yes. He was just THAT good for the beginning of his career... Ralph Kiner dominated for ten years and got in, and ARod's better than Kiner.
                            Are you saying he had a better chance then? Or, that you would've inducted him then anyway?

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                            • #15
                              Obviously that he was deserving then. Everything he's done since is just gravy.
                              "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                              Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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