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The Hall of Mistakes, Election #24

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  • The Hall of Mistakes, Election #24

    The Hall of Fame is never going to identify its mistakes, so it’s up to us. This is the 24th in a series of polls to set up a new wing in the Coop. I've picked up the pace a bit; we'll elect two players for each of the last three elections, to get us up to 34 players.

    We want to isolate the players that don’t reach the HOF’s minimum standards, so that they will not be used as examples for arguing that a similar player deserves enshrinement. We’ll elect one mistake at a time. These are our first 28 dishonorees, by position:

    C - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
    1B - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
    2B - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski
    3B - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
    SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
    LF - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
    CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
    RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper
    P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis

    Over on the History forum they’re running polls using the MVP voting format, voting for 10 guys in rank order, with points assigned 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let’s use that basic method, but since the differences between candidates are less now than in early rounds, I'll no longer give bonus points for getting a top vote. Your worst hall of fame player will be voted #1, the next worst #2, down to your 10th worst. The player with the most total points at the end of the poll (probably about a week) will hereafter be designated as a Mistake. We will follow with another thread to identify the next worst player, and so on. We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 225 players (34 guys).

    Players classified by the HOF as Pioneers/Managers/Executives/Umpires (e.g., Candy Cummings) are not eligible for this election. However, be aware that the 29 Negro league players are included - they are fair game for labeling as Mistakes.

    We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, Tommy McCarthy is probably the worst player in the Hall stat-wise. However, he was elected as much for being an innovator, a pioneer and a winning player as he was for his production as a player.

    Or Hughie Jennings. He has one of the shortest playing careers in the Hall. However, he was also a successful manager in addition to being the central player on a team often cited as the best of the 19th century. Frank Chance has a similar profile.

    So, voters will have to decide how much weight to give non-playing accomplishments. It should be interesting, as voters will need to consider more than just stats.

    A couple threads in this forum suggest candidates for voting out. (Underlined players are still active candidates.) The “Upper/Lower Hall of Fame Vote” thread has my list of who I think are the worst 76 players in the Hall. The poll under “Veterans Committee Mistakes” has the 26 worst players being Haines, T.Jackson, Lindstrom, Chesbro, Combs, Marquard, L. Waner, R. Ferrell, Hafey, Youngs, Hooper, G.Kelly, Tinker, Bottomley, Evers, Bancroft, Schoendienst, Rizzuto, Schalk, Lazzeri, Kell, Manush, Bender, Hoyt, Beckley and H. Wilson. (That poll did not include McCarthy, Willis or Chance.) There is also some good discussion from last spring in the thread “Weak HOFers”. Finally, in the thread "5 Tier HOF (v. 2) - The Admirable & Borderline" from 2003, the bottom 25 were identified (alphabetically) as Bancroft, Bottomley, Bresnahan, Chance, Chesbro, Combs, Evers, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Hoyt, T.Jackson, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Maranville, Marquard, Mazeroski, McCarthy, Pennock, Rizzuto, Schalk, Schoendienst, Tinker, L.Waner, and Youngs.

    With Lindstrom, Kelly, McCarthy, Marquard, Haines, Waner, T. Jackson, Ferrell, Youngs, Bender, Hafey, Pennock, Combs, Chesbro, Hoyt, Tinker, Schalk, Johnson, Bottomley, Schoendienst, Kell, Willis, Hooper, Manush, Bancroft, Evers, Rizzuto and Mazeroski no longer eligible, here's my list of the next ten to vote out:

    1.Cooper A
    2.Day L
    3.Cuyler
    4.Hunter
    5.Lazzeri
    6.Wilson H
    7.Rice S
    8.Gomez
    9.Lombardi
    10.Maranville
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    1. Fingers
    2. Perez, Tony
    3. Bresnahan
    4. Rixey
    5. Hunter
    6. Cuyler
    7. Wilson, H.
    8. Rice, S.
    9. Lombardi
    10. Gomez
    Last edited by KCGHOST; 03-14-2006, 12:23 PM.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KCGHOST
      9. Manush
      10. Lombardi
      Man, you're quick. Just one thing: Manush was already elected in #21. Please revise your ballot.:atthepc
      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

      Comment


      • #4
        why isnt Judy Johnson a good HOF pick?

        Comment


        • #5
          1.Andy Cooper
          2.Eppa Rixey
          3.Catfish Hunter
          4.Kiki Cuyler
          5.Hack Wilson
          6.Hugh Duffy
          7.Ernie Lombardi
          8.Rollie Fingers
          9.Sam Rice
          10.Hilton Smith

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by blackout805
            why isnt Judy Johnson a good HOF pick?
            Judy Johnson is one of the worst players in the Hall, the 2nd worst 3Bman after Lindstrom. He was a good fielder, yeah, I'll give him that. But, he wasn't one of the all time greats with the glove. He wasn't Lave Cross or Jimmy Collins or Lee Tannehill. He was probably more like Heinie Groh or Larry Gardner. A very good fielder, but not really really tremendous.

            With the bat, he wasn't any better than average. He hit about .300 most years, but had no power and no plate discipline. So, we have a very good fielder from 3B with a pretty good BA and no power or walks. That's not a HOF player. He's much closer to Aurelio Rodriguez than Brooks Robinson.

            Comment


            • #7
              Here is the consensus ballot from last election

              1.Cooper A
              2.Hunter
              3.Fingers
              4.Cuyler
              5.Rixey
              6.Perez
              7.Day
              8.Sutter
              9.Rice S
              10.Bresnahan

              We're still hoping for another ballot or two in this week's wide open race.
              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

              Comment


              • #8
                1) Sam Rice
                2) Andy Cooper
                3) Bruce Sutter
                4) Leon Day
                5) Kiki Cuyler
                6) Tony Lazzeri
                7) Ernie Lombardi
                8) Tony Perez
                9) Catfish Hunter
                10) Rollie Fingers
                -----I really don't think any of these guys were horrible picks. Probably half of them would make my personal HoF. Last ballot for me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by leecemark
                  -----I really don't think any of these guys were horrible picks. Probably half of them would make my personal HoF. Last ballot for me.
                  I would hope you reconsider your decision to quit voting. There's no question that we've taken care of all the "horrible" picks.

                  But you're saying to me that you basically agree with our stopping point of 34, when you say, "Probably half of them would make my personal HoF." That's about how I feel, too. That means there are still a few HOF mistakes on your ballot to take care of.

                  So we're gonna do the last two rounds and I hope you will register your opinion on just who are those last four mistakes.
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    --We are electing 4 more in 2 more ballots then? I can do that. To be honest I'm not sure which of the guys on this ballot are the half I'd keep though. All of them are right on the margin, along with a couple dozen more - both in and out of Cooperstown.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leecemark
                      --We are electing 4 more in 2 more ballots then? I can do that. To be honest I'm not sure which of the guys on this ballot are the half I'd keep though. All of them are right on the margin, along with a couple dozen more - both in and out of Cooperstown.
                      Great! Glad to hear you're with us.

                      This election will bring us up to 30. Our aim is in the lead post: "We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 225 players (34 guys)." Results tonight, probably.

                      After two more election, we'll get into the next phase: The Hall of Corrections, to determine the 34 replacements.
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Results, Election #24

                        Condolences to Andy Cooper and Kiki Cuyler, who become the 29th and 30th members of the Hall of Mistakes. Cooper, a recent electee to the HOF, becomes the second Negro leaguer to join our roster of mistakes. They join Fred Lindstrom, George Kelly, Tommy McCarthy, Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Lloyd Waner, Travis Jackson, Rick Ferrell, Ross Youngs, Chief Bender, Chick Hafey, Herb Pennock, Earle Combs, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Joe Tinker, Ray Schalk, Judy Johnson, Red Schoendienst, Jim Bottomley, George Kell, Vic Willis, Harry Hooper, Heinie Manush, Dave Bancroft, Johnny Evers, Phil Rizzuto and Bill Mazeroski. A wide open election looms for next time, with Catfish Hunter looking like the front-runner.

                        Here are the full results for the 24th election:
                        Code:
                        Pts	1st	Bal	Top 10 Players
                        39	3	4	Andy Cooper
                        33	0	5	Kiki Cuyler
                        32	0	5	Catfish Hunter
                        22	1	4	Rollie Fingers
                        22	0	3	Eppa Rixey
                        21	1	5	Sam Rice
                        20	0	3	Leon Day
                        17	0	3	Tony Perez
                        15	0	3	Hack Wilson
                        12	0	4	Ernie Lombardi
                        			the rest
                        11	0	2	Lazzeri
                        11	0	2	Sutter
                        9	0	2	Bresnahan
                        5	0	1	Duffy
                        4	0	2	Gomez
                        1	0	1	Maranville
                        1	0	1	Smith H
                        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                        Comment

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