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The Ultimate Quest for Candidates - Final Ranking

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
    Another thing we always check is Bill James' positional rankings. Here's an approximate chronological arrangement:
    Code:
    Ross	Barnes	 ---
    Deacon	White	 #76
    Paul	Hines	 #53
    Harry	Stovey	 #39
    Bill	Dahlen 	 #21
    Sherry	Magee	 #21
    Joe	Gordon	 #16
    Stan	Hack	  #9
    Minnie	Minoso	 #10
    Dick	Allen	 #15
    Ron	Santo	  #6
    Joe	Torre	 #11
    Bert	Blyleven #14
    Bobby	Grich	 #12
    Ted	Simmons	 #10
    Andre	Dawson	 #19
    Dale	Murphy	 #12
    Alan	Trammell  #9
    Mark	McGwire	  #3
    Tim	Raines	  #8
    The timeline is in strong evidence here. James' rankings are increasingly problematical before 1920 and next to useless before 1893.
    I'm not sure how James would handle McGwire today. Mcgwire's #3 comes after his 2000 season. That is before his horrific 2001 season and before the whole PEDs scandal. What doesn't help is that James gives no reason why he ranked McGwire at #3 instead writing the following fluff:

    My seven-year old son's favorite player wife... about 55% of McGwire's career value is accounted for by his home runs, a high figure, but not as high as players like Dave Kingman and Steve Balboni. McGwire does do some things well, other than hit home runs.
    Not much thought put into that statement. Also not much thought put into any player who played during baseball's first 70 years with a heavy emphasis placed on the past 30 or so years. I'm not ready to consider James' rankings seriously given his biases.

    Comment


    • #17
      The 500 Player Pyramid

      We did a project three summers ago called The 500 Player Pyramid, which is no longer archived on this site. The aim was to rate the top 500 players from 1 to 10. The project ground down as it progressed and we never did finish the final round (sorry, Mark). We did come up with a good ranking of 371 players, which I'm posting here.

      Basically, a rating of 6- or higher puts you in the top 100. A 4- or better is top 200. The HOF line is around 3 or 3-. Our top 20 were rated like this:
      Code:
      Ross	Barnes	 3
      Deacon	White	 3
      Paul	Hines	 3
      Harry	Stovey	 3-
      Bill	Dahlen 	 4
      Sherry	Magee	 3+
      Joe	Gordon	 4
      Stan	Hack	 3
      Minnie	Minoso	 4+
      Dick	Allen	 4
      Ron	Santo	 5
      Joe	Torre	 4
      Bert	Blyleven 4+
      Bobby	Grich	 4+
      Ted	Simmons	 4
      Andre	Dawson	 5-
      Dale	Murphy	 5-
      Alan	Trammell 4
      Mark	McGwire	 5
      Tim	Raines	 5+
      ===========================
      The 500 Player Pyramid

      We’re taking the top 500 players of all time and ranking them from 1 to 10. These are the top 371 players of all time, which we determined in the first nine rounds:
      Code:
      THE TOP 371 PLAYERS IN BASEBALL HISTORY 
      
      Pitchers (101) 
      10 Johnson W*
      9 Young C*
      9 Grove*
      9 Alexander*
      9 Clemens
      9 Mathewson*
      8 Spahn*
      8 Seaver*
      8 Maddux
      8 Paige*(n)
      8 Johnson R
      8- Carlton*
      7+ Feller*
      7+ Gibson B*
      7 Nichols*
      7 Hubbell*
      7 Koufax*
      7 Palmer*
      7 Ford*
      7- Martinez P
      6+ Marichal*
      6 Brown*
      6 Williams J*(n)
      6 Walsh*
      6 Ryan*
      6- Roberts*
      6- Perry G*
      5 Clarkson*#
      5 Wilhelm*
      5 Plank*
      5 Jenkins*
      5 Niekro P*
      5 Keefe*#
      5 Rogan*(n)
      5 Vance*
      5- Dean*
      4+ Blyleven
      4+ Eckersley*
      4+ Glavine
      4+ Gossage*
      4+ Coveleski*
      4 Newhouser*
      4 Radbourn*#
      4 Rusie*#
      4 McGinnity*
      4 Sutton D*
      4 Wynn E*
      4 Drysdale*
      4 Fingers*
      4- Waddell*
      4- Lyons*
      3+ Faber*
      3+ Rivera M
      3+ Sutter
      3+ Lemon B*
      3+ Bunning*
      3+ Mays C
      3 Galvin*#
      3 Joss*
      3 Brown K
      3 Ferrell W
      3 Ruffing*
      3 Mussina
      3 Rixey*
      3 Foster W*(n)
      3 Tiant
      3 Schilling
      3 Welch M*
      3 Caruthers #
      3 John T
      3 Day L*(n)
      3 Hunter*
      3- Hoffman T
      3- Kaat
      3- Smith Lee
      3- Brown Ray*(n)
      3- Smith H*(n)
      2+ Griffith C*#
      2+ Smoltz J
      2+ Spalding A*#
      2 Foster Ru*(n)
      2 Gomez L*
      2 Grimes B*
      2 Morris J
      2 Guidry R
      2 Quisenberry D
      2 Bridges T
      2 Pennock H*
      2 Mullane T #
      2 Redding D(n)
      2 Walters B
      2 Gooden D
      2 Cicotte E
      2 Hershiser O
      2- Bender C*
      2- Chesbro J*
      2- Hoyt W*
      2- Luque D
      2- Willis V*
      2- McCormick J #
      2- Lyle S
      Code:
      Catchers (27)
      9- Gibson J*(n)
      8+ Bench*
      8+ Berra*
      7 Cochrane*
      7- Piazza
      7- Campanella*
      7- Rodriguez I
      6 Ewing*#
      6 Dickey*
      6- Hartnett*
      5+ Fisk*
      5+ Carter G*
      4 Santop*(n)
      4 Torre
      4 Simmons T
      3+ Mackey*(n)
      3 Freehan
      3 White Dea #
      3 Munson
      3 Bresnahan*
      3- Lombardi*
      2+ Bennett C #
      2 Howard E
      2 McVey C #
      2 Schang W
      2 Parrish Lan
      2- Schalk R*
      
      First Base (38) 
      10 Gehrig*
      9 Foxx*
      7+ Greenberg*
      7 Anson*#
      7 Brouthers*#
      6+ Thomas F
      6+ Mize*
      6+ McCovey*
      6 Murray*
      6 Leonard B*(n)
      6 Bagwell
      6 Killebrew*
      5 Sisler*
      5 McGwire
      5 Palmeiro
      5 Connor*#
      5- Suttles(n)
      4 Allen
      4 Perez*
      4 Terry*
      4- Cepeda*
      3+ McGriff
      3+ Hernandez K
      3- Mattingly
      2+ Cash N
      2+ Clark W
      2+ Start J #
      2 Beckley J*#
      2 Pujols A
      2 Thome J
      2 Chance F*
      2 Garvey S
      2 Bottomley J*
      2 Hodges G
      2 Vernon M
      2- Galarraga A
      2- Grace M
      2- Helton T
      
      Second Base (29) 
      9+ Hornsby*
      9 Collins E*
      9- Lajoie*
      8+ Morgan*
      7+ Robinson J*
      7 Gehringer*
      6+ Carew*
      6- Frisch*
      6- Sandberg*
      5 Alomar
      5 Biggio
      4+ Grich
      4 Whitaker
      4 Gordon
      4 Doerr*
      4- Herman Bi*
      3+ Fox N*
      3 McPhee*#
      3 Richardson H #
      3 Barnes #
      3 Randolph
      2+ Kent J
      2+ Lazzeri T*
      2+ Childs C #
      2+ Grant F*(n)#
      2 Doyle L
      2 Mazeroski B*
      2 Schoendienst R*
      2 Evers J*
      
      Third Base (31) 
      9 Schmidt*
      8 Mathews*
      8 Brett*
      7 Boggs*
      5 Baker F*
      5 Santo
      5 Molitor*
      5 Robinson Br*
      4 Dandridge*(n)
      4 Traynor*
      4- Collins J*
      4- Boyer K
      3 Evans Da
      3 Hack
      3 Nettles
      3 Martinez E
      3 Jones Chi
      3- Wilson Ju*(n)
      3- Groh
      3- Beckwith(n)
      2+ Sutton E #
      2 Cey R
      2 Ventura R
      2 Williams Ma
      2 Rolen S
      2 Leach To
      2 Johnson Ju*(n)
      2 Rosen A
      2 Bando S
      2 Bell Bu
      2- Williamson E #
      
      Shortstop (37) 
      10 Wagner*
      8 Rodriguez A
      8 Lloyd*(n)
      8- Ripken*
      7 Vaughan*
      7 Banks*
      6 Yount*
      6- Cronin*
      5 Appling*
      5 Davis G*#
      5 Smith O*
      5- Larkin B
      4+ Wells W*(n)
      4 Trammell
      4 Boudreau*
      4 Dahlen #
      4 Reese*
      4 Ward J*#
      3+ Aparicio*
      3 Jeter
      3 Wright Ge*#
      3 Jennings*#
      3 Sewell J*
      3 Wallace*
      3 Glasscock #
      2+ Rizzuto P*
      2+ Johnson HR(n)
      2 Maranville R*
      2 Stephens V
      2 Concepcion D
      2 Garciaparra N
      2 Bancroft D*
      2 Pearce D #
      2 Tinker J*
      2 Vizquel O
      2- Lundy D(n)
      2- Tejada M
      
      Left Field (31) 
      10 Williams T*
      10 Bonds Ba
      9+ Musial*
      8 Henderson*
      8- Yastrzemski*
      7 Delahanty*#
      6 Rose
      6 Stearnes*(n)
      6 Simmons A*
      5+ Stargell*
      5+ Raines
      5 Williams Bi*
      5 Kiner*
      5- Medwick*
      5- Burkett*#
      4+ Minoso
      4+ Goslin*
      4+ Clarke F*
      4 O’Rourke*#
      4 Brock*
      4- Wheat*
      3+ Magee S
      3 Kelley J*#
      3 Belle A
      3 Irvin*(n)
      3 Rice J
      3- Stovey H #
      2+ Sheckard J
      2 Johnson Bob
      2 Manush H*
      2- Guerrero P
      
      Center Field (39) 
      10+ Cobb*
      10 Mays W*
      10- Mantle*
      9+ Speaker*
      9 DiMaggio J*
      8+ Charleston*(n)
      8 Griffey
      6+ Snider*
      6 Bell C*(n)
      6 Hamilton*#
      5- Doby*
      5- Dawson
      5- Murphy Dal
      4+ Puckett*
      4 Ashburn*
      4 Wynn J
      4 Averill*
      3+ Van Haltren #
      3+ Roush*
      3+ Carey*
      3 Duffy*#
      3 Hines #
      3 Gore #
      3 Hill P*(n)
      3- Lynn
      2+ Williams Be
      2+ Wilson H*
      2 Ryan J #
      2 Berger W
      2 Edmonds J
      2 Pinson V
      2 Pike L #
      2 Browning P #
      2 McGee W
      2- Combs E*
      2- Davis W
      2- Jones An
      2- Oliver A
      2- Waner L*
      
      Right Field (38) 
      10+ Ruth*
      10- Aaron*
      9- Robinson F*
      8 Ott*
      8- Gwynn*
      7+ Clemente*
      7 Kaline*
      7 Crawford*
      7- Jackson R*
      6 Waner P*
      6 Jackson J
      6- Heilmann*
      5+ Dihigo*(n)
      5+ Winfield*
      5+ Torriente*(n)
      5 Sosa
      4 Ramirez M
      4 Kelly K*#
      4 Sheffield
      4 Keeler*
      4 Evans Dw
      4 Slaughter*
      4- Thompson S*#
      3 Bonds Bo
      3 Flick*
      3- Oliva
      3- Smith Reg
      3- Klein*
      3- Parker D
      2+ Walker L
      2+ Staub R
      2+ Suzuki I
      2 Cuyler K*
      2 Rice S*
      2 Guerrero V
      2 Cravath G
      2 Youngs R*
      2- Hooper H*
      * = member of the Cooperstown hall
      (n) = primarily Negro league player
      # = primarily 19th century player

      See the thread, “The 500 Player Pyramid – Tier 9: The 2’s” for full results of the “2’s” voting.

      RULES

      We’ve decided on the following structure:

      10 10s
      15 9s
      20 8s
      25 7s
      30 6s (due to a tie, this is actually 31)
      40 5s (reduced to 39)
      55 4s (due to ties, reduced to 54)
      75 3s
      100 2s (due to ties, this is actually 102)
      130 1s (now planned for 129)

      We'll conduct voting one level at a time, starting with the 10's down to the 1's.

      Because the upper levels are well-trod ground for most of us, we did the first six rounds on a semi-monthly basis, with ballots due on the 15th and 30th of each month, March through May. We'll go at a slower pace now through the summer months, going to monthly elections for the last four elections, finishing up in September.

      To try and eliminate ties, the top 20% in each level will be specified with a + sign and your bottom 20% with a minus sign. For example, for the first election (10 10's), your top two players will be specified as 10+, the next six will be plain old 10's and the last two you will give 10-. This expresses some intensity to your rankings without having to go through the trouble of absolute rankings. Because of ties at the bottom of the last round, the 10th election (129 1's) will have 25 guys rated 1+, 78 rated 1, and 26 rated 1-.

      Eligible are all players in MLB and Negro leagues 1871 to 2005. Players' activity in the minors or foreign leagues should be considered when ascertaining their value. Players should be rated based upon their value contributed to their team's quest for a championship. Off-field behavior is relevant only to the extent that it relates to the teams' fortunes. Intangibles such as leadership should be considered, but player-managers should not have their contribution as managers included in their value. Issues of time-lining, such as how to account for different schedule lengths and levels of play are up to the individual voter to decide and should be a topic of the discussions.
      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
        I'm not sure how James would handle McGwire today. Mcgwire's #3 comes after his 2000 season. That is before his horrific 2001 season and before the whole PEDs scandal. What doesn't help is that James gives no reason why he ranked McGwire at #3 instead writing the following fluff:

        My seven-year old son's favorite player wife... about 55% of McGwire's career value is accounted for by his home runs, a high figure, but not as high as players like Dave Kingman and Steve Balboni. McGwire does do some things well, other than hit home runs.


        Not much thought put into that statement.
        Although it's very deep and thought provoking...compared to his Don Mattingly explaination. :cap:

        I don't understand why he does that.

        Comment


        • #19
          This crowd, partly ranked in the Hall of Merit

          The Hall of Merit has elected 57 players not in the Hall of Fame and it has turned thumbs down so far to 57 Hall of Fame players. After catching up to the present last year, the group incompletely ranked its own 57. Nineteen of our Top 20 are among them, all but Dale Murphy.

          Here are the four subrankings completed by the Hall of Merit.
          I have highlighted our Top 20 (19 players) simply.

          Twelve of the Hall of Merit members not in Cooperstown are ineligible there pending reinstatement by MLB (2), reconsideraton of the Negro Leagues (6), or recognition of basaeball before 1876 (4). We considered only the late four and one advanced to this finale.

          Not eligible (12)
          Pete Rose
          Grant Johnson
          Ross Barnes
          Joe Jackson
          Cal McVey
          John Beckwith
          Dickey Pearce
          Dobie Moore
          Quincy Trouppe
          Lip Pike
          Dick Lundy
          Alejandro Oms

          Twenty-one of the HOMers are eligible and debuted in the major leagues before 1943. In Cooperstown they are now outside the jurisdiction of the living Hall of Fame members, to be considered periodically by a new veterans committee that meets in person (to be appointed).

          We have seven of those 21, biased in favor of the more recent.

          Eligible major league players, debut before 1943 (21)
          Bill Dahlen
          Deacon White
          Paul Hines

          Jack Glasscock
          George Gore
          Joe Start
          Ezra Sutton
          Heinie Groh
          Hardy Richardson
          Bob Caruthers
          Charlie Bennett
          Sherry Magee
          Stan Hack
          Joe Gordon

          Jimmy Sheckard
          Charlie Keller
          Harry Stovey
          Cupid Childs
          Wes Ferrell
          Charley Jones
          Pete Browning

          Hack, Gordon, Keller, and Ferrell (top to bottom) stick out chronologically. They are all more than one baseball generation younger than Heinie Groh (1912 debut) whose last good season was 1921, and the last of them, Charlie Keller was a pinch-hitter when Minnie Minoso was a rookie (1951).

          The remaining 24 HOMers not in Cooperstown fall in two groups of 12, one under jurisdiction of the living Hall of Famers, periodic vote by mail, and one under BBWAA jurisdiction, annual vote by mail.

          Debut after 1942, no longer under BBWAA jurisdiction (12)
          Bobby Grich
          Ron Santo
          Dick Allen
          Ted Simmons

          Darrell Evans
          Joe Torre
          Minnie Minoso

          Bill Freehan
          Billy Pierce
          Jimmy Wynn
          Graig Nettles
          Ken Boyer

          Under BBWAA jurisdiction (12)
          Bert Blyleven
          Tim Raines
          Mark McGwire
          Alan Trammell

          Lou Whitaker
          Will Clark
          Keith Hernandez
          Dwight Evans
          Dave Stieb
          Bret Saberhagen
          Andre Dawson
          Willie Randolph

          plus Dale Murphy, not in the Hall of Merit

          Comment


          • #20
            How does Win Shares see these 20 candidates? Here's an approximate ranking, giving equal weight to the career total and the top 3 years, with all numbers adjusted to a 162-game schedule:
            Code:
            Bill	Dahlen 	 (449: 39-35-29)
            Tim	Raines	 (406: 36-34-32)
            Sherry	Magee	 (374: 40-38-33)
            Dick	Allen	 (344: 42-41-35)
            Bert	Blyleven (346: 29-23-23)
            Paul	Hines	
            Deacon	White	
            Mark	McGwire	 (349: 41-30-30)
            Ron	Santo	 (326: 38-36-32)
            Joe	Torre	 (316: 41-29-28)
            Ted	Simmons	 (321: 30-28-28)
            Andre	Dawson	 (353: 36-29-28)
            Ross	Barnes	
            Harry	Stovey	
            Minnie	Minoso	 (340: 34-31-30)
            Stan	Hack	 (325: 35-32-31)
            Bobby	Grich	 (339: 32-31-30)
            Alan	Trammell (327: 35-29-29)
            Dale	Murphy	 (301: 33-32-32)
            Joe	Gordon	 (301: 32-28-27)
            --The four early players are placed conservatively. I've seen estimates that have Hines and White with more than 400 AWS. As was said, win shares was never designed to accurately rate those guys.
            --WS doesn't adjust for league quality, so players like Magee and Stovey come out lower if you do that.
            --I added two low-prime years to Minoso's career total. If you simply want his schedule-adjusted total, subtract 44.
            --Blyleven is listed as high as he is because I generally give modern pitchers a 20% boost (this is not reflected in the WS numbers shown). I believe WS underrates players like Bert because the replacement level used is too high relative to other positions.
            --Simmons and Torre also were boosted for a catcher bonus, also not reflected in the numbers above.
            --Gordon has two years of war credit.
            Last edited by Freakshow; 07-11-2008, 05:42 AM.
            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

            Comment


            • #21
              How about the WARP3 view of the 20 candidates? Here's a ranking, giving equal weight to the career total and the top 3 seasons:
              Code:
              Bert	Blyleven 147.7	13.6	10.8	10.6
              Ron	Santo	 112.8	14.0	13.8	13.4
              Alan	Trammell 127.1	13.5	11.3	11.2
              Tim	Raines	 131.1	12.0	11.3	10.5
              Bobby	Grich	 123.9	11.8	11.6	11.0
              Bill	Dahlen 	 127.9	10.4	 9.5	 9.0
              Joe	Gordon	 112.1	11.5	11.1	10.6
              Dick	Allen	  99.2	13.4	11.4	10.9
              Mark	McGwire	 109.8	11.9	10.8	 9.6
              Andre	Dawson	 107.5	11.8	 9.9	 9.4
              Deacon	White	 110.1	10.6	10.1	 9.6
              Paul	Hines	 105.3	11.8	10.3	 8.9
              Stan	Hack	 100.3	10.9	10.2	 9.7
              Joe	Torre	 101.2	11.3	 9.4	 9.3
              Ross	Barnes	  71.9	14.9	12.0	11.8
              Dale	Murphy	  86.4	11.6	10.0	 9.7
              Ted	Simmons	  94.9	 8.9	 8.6	 8.3
              Minnie	Minoso	  89.0	10.5	 8.6	 8.0
              Sherry	Magee	  87.8	10.2	 8.5	 8.0
              Harry	Stovey	  76.6	 9.4	 9.2	 8.3
              --Just a couple adjustments to mention, otherwise the numbers are straight off the B-Pro site.
              --Minoso was again given credit for two more low-prime years. If you disagree, subtract 12 from his career total shown above.
              --Gordon, again, gets two years of war credit added to his career total.
              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

              Comment


              • #22
                My Ballot

                Here's how I have them ranked now. Perhaps minor revisions will come later.

                1 Blyleven
                2 Raines
                3 Santo
                4 Dahlen
                5 Minoso
                6 Torre
                7 Trammell
                8 Allen
                9 McGwire
                10 Hines
                11 White
                12 Grich
                13 Simmons
                14 Barnes
                15 Magee
                16 Gordon
                17 Dawson
                18 Hack
                19 Stovey
                20 Murphy
                Last edited by Freakshow; 07-18-2008, 07:58 AM. Reason: Barnes-Magee switched
                Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I find myself constantly readjusting my top seven...they all have their own superb arguments for inclusion. The other thirteen are pretty easy because I can see their faults and just far over (or under) the line I have them. Really, I'm absolutely unconcerned whether Trammell ends up above Raines or Santo above Blyleven. These guys should just flat out be in the hall, no debate.
                  1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                  1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                  1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                  1966 1974 1977 1978


                  1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                  2013 2014


                  1996 2006

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    My ballot is completed. Comment on it if you'd like.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      At the risk of turning this into yet another PED thread, I would ask voters to consider whether they're making McGwire a scapegoat and thereby being unfair to him in ranking him near the bottom of the 20.

                      This was my take in a recent post: "Since I believe that a majority of players in the "steroids era" were using PEDs, it is unfair to make examples of the few who've been outed."

                      And later: "Players were not the ones in positions of power to effectively control the proliferation of PEDs in baseball."
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Classic View Post
                        1. Ron Santo
                        2. Bert Blyleven
                        3. Dick Allen
                        4. Tim Raines
                        5. Bill Dahlen
                        6. Bobby Grich
                        7. Alan Trammell
                        8. Minnie Minoso
                        9. Mark McGwire
                        10. Deacon White
                        11. Joe Gordon
                        12. Paul Hines
                        13. Sherry Magee
                        14. Ted Simmons
                        15. Stan Hack
                        16. Harry Stovey
                        17. Andre Dawson
                        18. Joe Torre
                        19. Dale Murphy
                        20. Ross Barnes
                        Finalized.
                        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          long careers at catcher

                          Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                          How does Win Shares see these 20 candidates? Here's an approximate ranking, giving equal weight to the career total and the top 3 years, with all numbers adjusted to a 162-game schedule:
                          Code:
                          10. Joe	Torre	 (316: 41-29-28)
                          11. Ted	Simmons	 (321: 30-28-28)
                          --Simmons and Torre also were boosted for a catcher bonus, also not reflected in the numbers above.
                          From the adjusted placement and the unadjusted win shares I infer catcher bonuses similar in magnitude. Torre's catching career may look almost as long as Simmons's on the calendar but Torre didn't catch nearly so much as Simmons did when they were catchers. Measured in full seasons equivalent (fse) games, or shares of literally full seasons, Simmons was catcher twice as long as Torre, just ahead of Dickey, Berra, and Bench at about 11 seasons.
                          seasons
                          11.18 Simmons (rank 14, 1871-2006)
                          _5.59 Torre (#150)

                          Only seven have played a full season longer than Simmons as catchers.

                          (If he plays out this season successfully Ivan Rodriguez will be a step behind Fisk and Boone, as Omar Vizquel was a step behind Aparicio and Smith after 2007.)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            If this were about spending real resources I would advocate spending none on Blyleven, Dawson, McGwire and Raines. I don't think the BBWAA has rejected them in any sense. (Jim Rice has more than doubled his 29%; Steve Garvey more than halved his 42%. Those guys do change their minds.)

                            And I would advocate spending none on Santo, Grich, et al, because we certainly wouldn't teach living Hall of Famers anything.

                            The Board of Directors hasn't yet appointed its new veterans committee to elect players with major league debuts before 1943. I suspect it's possible to influence them by spending money in the right way, but I don't know the right way. Does anyone?

                            The Historical Overview Committee comprises 11 active writers and I don't know of plans even to change the individuals. They will present the new v.c. with a ballot of ten. That is a low number. Practically it makes the HOC a nominating committee where it has been a screening committee, responsible for listing 200 names for 2003/2005/2007. Should we spend our $250,000 on the Tracy Ringolsby and Co.?

                            Maybe the best thing we can do with the money, toward electing the right people to the Hall of Fame, is to sponsor a study of the crack colored clubs from 1895 to 1919. At this stage the focus must be compilation of basic records from newspaper accounts.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                              From the adjusted placement and the unadjusted win shares I infer catcher bonuses similar in magnitude. Torre's catching career may look almost as long as Simmons's on the calendar but Torre didn't catch nearly so much as Simmons did when they were catchers.
                              Simmons' catching bonus was about twice as much as Torre's. That brings Simmons up next to Torre, despite Torre's large peak advantage.
                              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                                At the risk of turning this into yet another PED thread, I would ask voters to consider whether they're making McGwire a scapegoat and thereby being unfair to him in ranking him near the bottom of the 20.

                                This was my take in a recent post: "Since I believe that a majority of players in the "steroids era" were using PEDs, it is unfair to make examples of the few who've been outed."

                                And later: "Players were not the ones in positions of power to effectively control the proliferation of PEDs in baseball."
                                I put McGwire 15th without any adjustment for PEDs, so that has nothing to do with me. His career is a bit on the short side in terms of total playing time.
                                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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