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The Ultimate Quest for Candidates - Final Ranking

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  • The Ultimate Quest for Candidates - Final Ranking

    Welcome to the Ultimate Quest for Candidates! This is the final round, where we take the top 20 candidates for the Hall of Fame and rank them in order. There will not be a poll with this thread, we're going for a more precise ranking in order to tell the Hall, "Here's the next player you should be inducting. And the next. And the next...." We'll allow two or three weeks for everyone to weigh in with their rankings and discussion of who should be ranked high or low.

    You may change your ballot at any time before the official tally is done; in fact, here I would encourage voters to consider other's ballots and alternative assessments of these players. Comments on other people's ballots are welcome; if you think a voter blew it, try to persuade them to see things differently.

    As always, we will be judging players by the same criteria that the Hall of Fame uses:

    “voting shall be based upon the individual's record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game.”

    So everything counts, their lifetime achievements on and off the field, along with their character and other intangibles.

    Here is an alphabetical listing of the 20 players you need to rank, from the most deserving HOF candidate at #1 down to #20:
    3 Dick	Allen		1960s
    4 Ross	Barnes		1870s
    1 Bert	Blyleven	1970s
    6 Bill	Dahlen 		1890s
    8 Andre	Dawson		1980s
    4 Joe	Gordon		1940s
    4 Bobby	Grich		1970s
    5 Stan	Hack		1940s
    8 Paul	Hines		1880s
    7 Sherry Magee		1910s
    3 Mark	McGwire		1990s
    7 Minnie Minoso		1950s
    8 Dale	Murphy		1980s
    7 Tim	Raines		1980s
    5 Ron	Santo		1960s
    2 Ted	Simmons		1970s
    7 Harry	Stovey		1880s
    2 Joe	Torre		1960s
    6 Alan	Trammell	1980s
    2 Deacon White		1870s
    For myself, Blyleven, Raines, Santo and Dahlen will all be near the top of my ballot, while Murphy, Stovey, Hack and Dawson are likely to lag near the bottom. I'm still thinking it over.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 07-09-2008, 05:36 AM. Reason: added positions
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    --I'll be giving some weight to putting living players higher. It won't be a primary factor, but it will be considered. I'll also be looking for players who did somethig special that makes them more worthy of getting a place in the Hall of Fame than a player of similar value who doesn't have anything of particular historic noteworthyness going for them.
    --Prelininary ballot

    1) Ron Santo - only guy outside Coopertown who has an arguement for top 5 at his position and is a lock for top 10. Very hard to understand this ommission.
    2) Minnie Minoso - great player who stats suffer a little from missing the front end of his career. Even with that credit probably not this high based strictly on his playing career, but also was a pioneer for Latin Blacks. Has been a great ambassador for the game and is running out of time to attend his induction
    3) Bert Blyleven - easily the best unenshired pitcher. In fact the only pitcher I'd call a glarign ommission.
    4) Tim Raines - I'd have voted for him first ballot and was very dissapointed by his actual vote totals. A big step forward in the net election would be a good sign that the BWAA is learning to appreciate somethign other than big traditional milestone and is prepared to fairly consider recent players who clearly meet the middle range of established HoF quailifers from previous generations.
    5) Alan Trammell - ditto, although I have much less hope of seeing this actually happen for Trammell.
    6) Deacon White - Recent players have gotten badly mistreated by the voters, but no obvious Hall of Famer has been overlooked longer than White. The first generation of stars is badly underrepresented. White was one of the biggest of the 1870s and the best career of those not already enshirned (2nd only to Anson amoung original 1871 guys).
    7) Bill Dahlen
    8) Paul Hines
    9) Ted Simmons
    10) Ross Barnes
    11) Joe Torre
    12) Dick Allen
    13) Sherry Magee
    14) Bobby Grich
    15) Joe Gordon
    16) Andre Dawson
    17) Dale Murphy
    18) Stan Hack
    19) Mark McGwire (ask me again and a couple years and I'm sure he'd be higher
    20) Harry Stovey
    Last edited by leecemark; 07-16-2008, 10:50 AM.


    • #3
      Here's my preliminary attempt:

      1. Dick Allen
      2. Ron Santo
      3. Bert Blyleven
      4. Tim Raines
      5. Bill Dahlen
      6. Paul Hines
      7. Minnie Minoso
      8. Alan Trammell
      9. Ted Simmons
      10. Sherry Magee
      11. Bobby Grich
      12. Ross Barnes
      13. Joe Torre
      14. Deacon White
      15. Joe Gordon
      16. Harry Stovey
      17. Stan Hack
      18. Dale Murphy
      19. Mark McGwire
      20. Andre Dawson
      Last edited by Erik Bedard; 07-11-2008, 04:57 AM.


      • #4
        My rankings and reasons for each:

        1. Ron Santo--The best eligible player not in the HOF. 6th or 7th at worst at his position. The fact that he has not been elected to this point is a travesty.

        2. Bert Blyleven--The best pitcher not in the HOF and possibly a top 40 pitcher all time. Only him and Quisenberry are clear omissions at this position.

        3. Tim Raines--The guy could hit, run, had plate discipline. The fact of the matter is that his best years were spent on a team no one was watching and his defense was good but never among the best. I'm hoping he is elected in the next 2-3 years.

        4. Bill Dahlen--The best at his position not in the HOF and a major omission. Possibly in the top 10 at his positon all time.

        5. Paul Hines--The best out fielder not in the HOF. A major omission from a period that often gets overlooked.

        6. Minnie Minoso--An embassador for the game and an excellent player who is clearly over the line for me.

        7. Ted Simmons--One of the best catchers of the past 40 years. I'm hoping the VC does better than the BBWAA did with this candidate but I'm not holding my breath.

        8. Dick Allen--One of the best talents not in the HOF. His attitude prevents him from being ranked higher for me.

        9. Ross Barnes--A fielding wiz in an era where there were no gloves and a player with one of the highest peaks in the history of the game. The best of the 1st generation of stars.

        10. Mark McGwire--A guy who struck out a lot, had several miserable years, then discovered a drug that rejuvenated his power but was not illegal to use in the MLB at the time. It's time to recognize the fact that McGwire had enough impressive seasons and compiled enough home runs to make it into an elite club and stop punishing him for something he did openly and made no attempt to hide that the press was more than happy to ignore at the time he was setting home run records. Minus the steroid scandal, McGwire reminds me of Kiner and Killebrew. EDIT: I have moved McGwire up to #10 after taking into consideration his high OPS+.

        11. Joe Gordon--An excellent fielder at a defensive position and a player with an excellent peak. The brevity of his career prevents him from ranking higher.

        12. Sherry Magee--A guy blessed with speed and power. If only his career was 20 years later...

        13. Alan Trammell--I rank him just below Dahlen at his position. The fact that he gets almost no attention is a major travesty. Trammell and Whitaker just may be the greatest mid field battery of all time.

        14. Stan Hack--#1 at his position in the 30s and early 40s. That alone is enough for his inclusion.

        15. Deacon White--His value comes as a hitter who hit for average, for his longevity and continued performance into his 30s, and that played two defensive positions. I have Bennett ranked significantly higher than him at catcher.

        16. Joe Torre--As a player, he was very good. It is his managerial career that puts him ahead of the remaining 4 for me.

        17. Harry Stovey--Someone with power and speed. That gives him a slight edge on Dawson, and Murphy. His career was on the short side which prevents him from ranking higher for me.

        18. Andre Dawson--A great fielder and someone who's career was hampered by playing his best years in Montreal. Someone just over the line for me.

        19. Bobby Grich--A six time all star and a 4 time gold glove winner. Great at his position, but outside of my HOF bracket. I can see him firmly in the gray area, however.

        20. Dale Murphy--He was great at a time when his team stunk. Unfortunately, he held on too long and ended his career with 6 miserable seasons and that is what he is consistently remembered for. Had he retired in 1987, he'd fare better for me. As it stands, I rank him well outside of the top 20, but apparently am in the minority.
        Last edited by jjpm74; 07-13-2008, 03:35 PM.


        • #5
          1. Bert Blyleven
          2. Ron Santo
          3. Tim Raines
          4. Dick Allen
          5. Ted Simmons
          6. Alan Trammell
          7. Minnie Minoso
          8. Bobby Grich
          9. Deacon White
          10. Paul Hines
          11. Sherry Magee
          12. Ross Barnes
          13. Bill Dahlen
          14. Stan Hack
          15. Harry Stovey
          16. Andre Dawson
          17. Joe Gordon
          18. Dale Murphy
          19. Joe Torre
          20. Mark McGwire
          Last edited by BlueBlood; 07-11-2008, 12:47 AM.
          1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

          1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
          1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
          1966 1974 1977 1978

          1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
          2013 2014

          1996 2006


          • #6
            1. Ron Santo
            2. Bert Blyleven
            3. Dick Allen
            4. Tim Raines
            5. Bill Dahlen
            6. Bobby Grich
            7. Alan Trammell
            8. Minnie Minoso
            9. Mark McGwire
            10. Deacon White
            11. Joe Gordon
            12. Paul Hines
            13. Sherry Magee
            14. Ted Simmons
            15. Stan Hack
            16. Harry Stovey
            17. Andre Dawson
            18. Joe Torre
            19. Dale Murphy
            20. Ross Barnes
            Last edited by Chadwick; 07-11-2008, 06:11 AM.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe


            • #7
              1. Blyleven
              2. Santo
              3. Allen
              4. Dahlen
              5. White
              6. Magee
              7. Hack
              8. Hines
              9. Raines
              10. Stovey
              11. Minoso
              12. Simmons
              13. Gordon
              14. Grich
              15. McGwire
              16. Trammell
              17. Dawson
              18. Murphy
              19. Barnes
              20. Torre (solely as a player)

              I would have had to work quite hard on this if not for the SOC project, for which I had done basically the same thing.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


              • #8
                1. Santo
                2. Blyleven
                3. Allen
                4. Raines
                5. Dahlen
                6. Minoso
                7. Grich
                8. White
                9. Magee
                10. Simmons
                11. Gordon
                12. Trammell
                13. Torre
                14. Hines
                15. Barnes
                16. Murphy
                17. Dawson
                18. Stovey
                19. Hack
                20. McGwire
                Last edited by Windy City Fan; 07-19-2008, 08:12 AM.
                "I will calmly wait for my induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame."
                - Sammy Sosa

                "Get a comfy chair, Sammy, cause its gonna be a long wait."
                - Craig Ashley (AKA Windy City Fan)


                • #9
                  1. Ross Barnes
                  2. Mark McGwire
                  3. Harry Stovey
                  4. Dick Allen
                  5. Deacon White
                  6. Sherry Magee
                  7. Ron Santo
                  8. Bert Blyleven
                  9. Dale Murphy
                  10. Paul Hines
                  11. Minnie Minoso
                  12. Ted Simmons
                  13. Andre Dawson
                  14. Stan Hack
                  15. Joe Torre
                  16. Joe Gordon
                  17. Bill Dahlen
                  18. Tim Raines
                  19. Alan Trammell
                  20. Bobby Grich


                  • #10
                    "Loose groupings for now" - I like that

                    Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                    20. Torre (solely as a player)
                    I went back and forth and voted for Torre in rounds one and three.
                    Yes, as leecemark and Jim jointly suggest, the difference may be as great as number one to number twenty at this stage.


                    • #11
                      Yes, how to handle Joe Torre's case? If you think his primary contribution is as a manager, then he shouldn't even be considered here. The intent of this project is that we consider the whole career, not just as a player.

                      Here's my take. I generally don't give managers a lot of credit for anything. You win with players. That being said, there are a handful of managers in history who were exceptional, who did make their teams better. This was easier in the days of Frank Selee when the field manager also had a significant role in player procurement and scouting. But I digress.

                      With Torre, I don't give him big credit as a manager. Other of his contemporary managers could've done what he did with that talent. Nice job, but Torre's playing career did far more to make his teams win. And it was a hall of fame quality career. He'll be in the top half of my ballot.
                      Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                      Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                        I would have had to work quite hard on this if not for the SOC project, for which I had done basically the same thing.
                        Yes, the Suburbs of Cooperstown project is one I'm referencing as well. Here is where each of the 20 were drafted in that project:
                        Bert	Blyleven  1
                        Bill	Dahlen 	  2
                        Dick	Allen	  3
                        Ron	Santo	  4
                        Tim	Raines	  5
                        Alan	Trammell  6
                        Deacon	White	  7
                        Mark	McGwire	  8
                        Bobby	Grich	  9
                        Ted	Simmons	 13
                        Paul	Hines	 14
                        Joe	Torre	 16
                        Minnie	Minoso	 26
                        Sherry	Magee	 28
                        Joe	Gordon	 37
                        Stan	Hack	 38
                        Andre	Dawson	 39
                        Harry	Stovey	 42
                        Ross	Barnes	 51
                        Dale	Murphy	 65
                        Rember that wasn't strictly a draft in order of HOF deservedness. We were building teams in that draft, so position scarcity played a major role in where players were drafted.
                        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                          . . .
                          Harry	Stovey	 42
                          Ross	Barnes	 51
                          Dale	Murphy	 65 [60th major leaguer drafted, given 5 Negro Leaguers]
                          Remember that wasn't strictly a draft in order of HOF deservedness. We were building teams in that draft, so position scarcity played a major role in where players were drafted.
                          Three catchers and three shortstops in six of the empty spaces through #22: Bill Freehan, Charlie Bennett, and "Negro Leaguers" Trouppe, Beckwith, Lundy, Moore.

                          We were also asked to try and ensure that the top ten at eight fielding positions plus the top forty pitchers (sum=120) would be in the first 140 selections, the "inner suburbs". So in my interpretation we should do some maneuvering: if X and Y clearly belong, draft Y who might be overlooked rather than X who will certainly be taken. For me in round four (#34), Y=Hardy Richardson and X=Ross Barnes.

                          Yet I don't see any confirmation of our judgment in the fact that practically all of the Top 20 were in the Top 40 there. Participants in that draft project are about one-third of the voters here.
                          Last edited by Paul Wendt; 07-09-2008, 05:10 PM.


                          • #14
                            Another thing we always check is Bill James' positional rankings. Here's an approximate chronological arrangement:
                            Ross	Barnes	 ---
                            Deacon	White	 #76
                            Paul	Hines	 #53
                            Harry	Stovey	 #39
                            Bill	Dahlen 	 #21
                            Sherry	Magee	 #21
                            Joe	Gordon	 #16
                            Stan	Hack	  #9
                            Minnie	Minoso	 #10
                            Dick	Allen	 #15
                            Ron	Santo	  #6
                            Joe	Torre	 #11
                            Bert	Blyleven #14
                            Bobby	Grich	 #12
                            Ted	Simmons	 #10
                            Andre	Dawson	 #19
                            Dale	Murphy	 #12
                            Alan	Trammell  #9
                            Mark	McGwire	  #3
                            Tim	Raines	  #8
                            The timeline is in strong evidence here. James' rankings are increasingly problematical before 1920 and next to useless before 1893.
                            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.


                            • #15
                              Two years ago we did a little project called The Hall of Corrections, electing the top 34 non-HOFers inclding Negro leaguers) over the course of 13 elections. Here's how our top 20 ranked in that project:
                              Ron	Santo	 1
                              Bert	Blyleven 2
                              Dick	Allen	 3
                              Minnie	Minoso	 4
                              Sherry	Magee	 6
                              Bill	Dahlen 	 7
                              Alan	Trammell 8
                              Bobby	Grich	 9
                              Ted	Simmons	10
                              Joe	Gordon	11
                              Dale	Murphy	13
                              Andre	Dawson	15
                              Joe	Torre	16
                              Paul	Hines	17
                              Deacon	White	20
                              Stan	Hack	22
                              Harry	Stovey	26
                              Ross	Barnes	35
                              Mark	McGwire	ne
                              Tim	Raines	ne
                              McGwire and Raines were not eligible for the HOF at that time. Barnes was the top runnerup in the final election. Filling in some of the blanks, #5 was Gossage, newly elected to the Hall; #12 was Albert Belle; #14 was Keith Hernandez. Negro leaguers Beckwith (#28) and Johnson (#31) were also listed.
                              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.