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  • #16
    Originally posted by dgarza
    Back before free agency, I'd take Foster 1st over the long haul. For the playoff, well, I'm not a big one to look at post-season stats and make a decision based on them, but Foster's post-season batting numbers are better.
    Maris helped both the Yankess and Cards win World series and you'd take Foster?--I'll pit my team against yours any time

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    • #17
      --Maris didn't exactly carry those teams on his back. He was generally about the third best position player on those Yankee teams and he was only the third best outfielder for the Cardinals. I seem to remember both of those teams winning pennants before they picked Maris up (Yankees 9 of 11 years and Cards in 64).

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      • #18
        Originally posted by four tool
        Maris helped both the Yankess and Cards win World series and you'd take Foster?--I'll pit my team against yours any time
        Just 'cause it would have Maris? What do those Teams have to do with a Foster vs Maris debate? 75-76 were years as well. Of course Maris also didn't help his teams win post season series just as often as he did help them (that's for your logic)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by leecemark
          --Maris didn't exactly carry those teams on his back. He was generally about the third best position player on those Yankee teams and he was only the third best outfielder for the Cardinals. I seem to remember both of those teams winning pennants before they picked Maris up (Yankees 9 of 11 years and Cards in 64).
          I'm not trying to say Maris carried those Cardinals teams; he was probably only their fifth best player. But he wasn't bad for them... put up a 116 OPS+ in 1967.

          Maris was certainly no HoF'er overall... but I think the case between him and Foster is a close one. Foster was a better slugger, overall, but he didn't really bring anything else to the table... They both were pretty lousy in the BA department, but Maris had a significant edge in relative OBP. Maris' OPS+ is higher for his career... and he was a great defender.

          It's not really ludicrous to go either way with them... I pick Maris, largely because of his defense, because their offenses were so similar... and because Foster KILLED the Mets with his mediocre play and huge contract(though of course the team did pretty well after they got rid of him).
          "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

          Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ElHalo
            and because Foster KILLED the Mets with his mediocre play and huge contract(though of course the team did pretty well after they got rid of him).
            Foster never KILLED the Mets

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            • #21
              Originally posted by dgarza
              Foster never KILLED the Mets
              I remember Foster as supposedly being the Mets' saviour... the guy who was to bring them to the promised land. They shelled out a whole heap of money for him... and he did nothing.

              Pretty much the same thing as they had with Bonilla, but ten years earlier.
              "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

              Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

              Comment


              • #22
                --The more I look at Foster vs Maris the more convinced I am Foster was better. As El Halo mentioned their career percent stats are almost exactly the same - Maris 260/345/476 - 127 OPS+, Foster 271/338/480 - 126 OPS+. However, Foster's counting stats are much better - 348HR/1239RBI/986runs to 275HR/851RBI/826runs.
                --Maris probably has the defensive edge, but it overstates the case by quite a bit to describe him as "one of the best corner outfielders of the last 50 years". Maris won exactly one Gold Glove. Al Kaline and Roberto Clemente were his exact contemporaries and were regarded by every source I've ever read - and the Gold Glove voters - to be Maris' superior. Minoso and Yaz were the other top corner men in the AL during Maris career. He was good, but probably not good enough to make up much ground against a better hitter at a corner OF spot.
                --It really doesn't matter much which was better in the long run. Neither deserves the Hall of Fame, but if I had to pick one it would be Foster.

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                • #23
                  Leecemark,

                  When I've read people talk about the best defensive rightfielders of the postwar era, the discussion usually includes Kaline, Clemente, Maris, Larry Walker, and Ichiro. Not a bad short list to be on. Ralph Houk once said that Maris was better defensively than Mantle... Maris played CF over Mantle in the 1962 AS game.

                  And like I said, it's not a huge difference... their percentage numbers are similar, with probably a slight edge to Maris... their counting numbers are disparate, which the edge to Foster... Maris had the better defense... and Maris had the better peak.

                  You want to take Foster, go ahead. I'd take Maris... but I wouldn't really be happy with either one of them. I just brought this thread up because I didn't think George Foster got enough respect from people.
                  "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                  Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    --El Halo, I'm not really sure saying Maris was better is advancing the cause of getting more respect for Foster. At least we agree neither is a Hall of Famer.
                    -- One last point of interest, neither Foster nor Maris has a Hall of Famer amoung their ten most similar players (Maris' most similar is Bob Allison, for Foster its Gil Hodges). For Maris three "great years" ,however, his most similar player was Reggie Jackson all three years. Of course, Reggie was at that level about 4 times as long. If anyone is interested, Foster's most similar player (well hitter) in his 4 best years was Willie Stargell each time.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by leecemark
                      --El Halo, I'm not really sure saying Maris was better is advancing the cause of getting more respect for Foster. At least we agree neither is a Hall of Famer.
                      No, neither is a HoF'er... how can I put this...

                      I think that Roger Maris is vastly overrated by most people, and that George Foster is vastly underrated... so much so that his name never gets mentioned. I just found it odd that nobody ever mentioned Foster, becuase I felt he was good enough to get remembered... though not as good as Maris.

                      Basically, it comes down to this: When I was a little kid, maybe 6 or 7 years old, I memorized all the players who'd ever hit 50 homers, how many they'd hit that year, and what year they'd done. Obviously, since this was past the time Foster'd done it, the list went like this:

                      Ruth 4
                      Foxx 2
                      Mays 2
                      Mantle 2
                      Kiner 2
                      Mize
                      Maris
                      Wilson
                      Greenberg
                      Foster

                      And it struck me that all of these guys are always talked about as being among the best players of all time, and all are in the HoF... except Maris and Foster. And that Maris is talked about all the time in various capacities... but not Foster.

                      So I figured, why not Foster? Never meant to say that he was a HoF'er, or even as good as Maris... but why is his name never brought up?

                      The 50 HR club is a revered club from my childhood, a hallowed ground upon which only the greatest of the great baseball players could tread... but somehow, nobody seemed to recognize the pantheonness of Foster. In retrospect, he wasn't that great, and of course the sanctity of the 50 HR club is completely gone now that Brady Anderson, Greg Vaughn, and Luis Gonzalez are members, but still.
                      Last edited by ElHalo; 06-29-2004, 10:53 PM.
                      "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                      Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ElHalo


                        And it struck me that all of these guys are always talked about as being among the best players of all time, and all are in the HoF... except Maris and Foster. And that Maris is talked about all the time in various capacities... but not Foster.

                        So I figured, why not Foster? Never meant to say that he was a HoF'er, or even as good as Maris... but why is his name never brought up?
                        Foster was somewhat overshadowed by his more famous teammates, Rose (say what you will about him now, but he was immensely popular before the gambling came to light), Bench, Morgan and the acquired in-season Tom Seaver the year he hit 52. He was also a quiet, private man. Part of the difference may be the venues. New York is New York, and Cincinnati is, er, Kentucky.
                        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ElHalo
                          The 50 HR club is a revered club from my childhood, a hallowed ground upon which only the greatest of the great baseball players could tread... but somehow, nobody seemed to recognize the pantheonness of Foster. In retrospect, he wasn't that great, and of course the sanctity of the 50 HR club is completely gone now that Brady Anderson, Greg Vaughn, and Luis Gonzalez are members, but still.
                          El Halo, as I read this I can't help but think back to your posts about Reggie Jackson in the 70's Players thread. Your posts there seemed to downgrade how impressive Jackson's career homerun totals were. When he retired, 500 career homeruns was still a revered and very exclusive club, and when he retired only 5 people ever had hit more homeruns than Jackson. Yet, you seemed to treat his career power stats as not all that impressive. Whereas here, you seem to put a lot of stock in how impressive one great season of power was when 50 homeruns was still a revered feat. It just seems to me that your contradicting yourself a bit on the importance of power as you do not treat Jackson's career homerun total as impressive, but you do treat anyone (including George Foster) who had one good season of power as impressive and at least worthy of hall consideration. I don't understand how you can give added weight to George Foster's hall case because he hit 50 homeruns once when it was a special achievement, but you dismiss Jackson's career homerun total (and suggest he was not much better than Frank Howard) when that was an even more significant achievement. What's more impressive to me? I'll take Jackson hitting 563 career homeruns good for 6th all-time when he retired and compiled in an era of depressed power stats, over one great season of power.

                          As for the topic of this thread, I'd take Foster over Maris due to longevity of production. Foster from 1975 to 1985 was consistently a good hitter and run producer, and from 76-79, he was great.

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                          • #28
                            I've never ever seen El Halo go so ape over defense as he has with Maris. Usually it's not an issue.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DoubleX
                              El Halo, as I read this I can't help but think back to your posts about Reggie Jackson in the 70's Players thread. Your posts there seemed to downgrade how impressive Jackson's career homerun totals were. When he retired, 500 career homeruns was still a revered and very exclusive club, and when he retired only 5 people ever had hit more homeruns than Jackson. Yet, you seemed to treat his career power stats as not all that impressive. Whereas here, you seem to put a lot of stock in how impressive one great season of power was when 50 homeruns was still a revered feat. It just seems to me that your contradicting yourself a bit on the importance of power as you do not treat Jackson's career homerun total as impressive, but you do treat anyone (including George Foster) who had one good season of power as impressive and at least worthy of hall consideration. I don't understand how you can give added weight to George Foster's hall case because he hit 50 homeruns once when it was a special achievement, but you dismiss Jackson's career homerun total (and suggest he was not much better than Frank Howard) when that was an even more significant achievement. What's more impressive to me? I'll take Jackson hitting 563 career homeruns good for 6th all-time when he retired and compiled in an era of depressed power stats, over one great season of power.

                              As for the topic of this thread, I'd take Foster over Maris due to longevity of production. Foster from 1975 to 1985 was consistently a good hitter and run producer, and from 76-79, he was great.
                              It's all a matter of degrees here. In the Reggie Jackson context, I was trying to argue that he wasn't that great of a player... that he was, at best, a third tier HoF'er.

                              I don't believe that either Maris or Foster are in any way, shape, or form HoF'ers. I don't believe that either one of them are even close to being as good as Reggie Jackson... he's not a top 30 all time player in my book, but he's still a lot better than Foster or Maris.

                              My point with Foster wasn't saying that he should merit Hall consideration... just that his name should maybe sometime be mentioned by anybody in any context ever. Sometime.

                              Obviously, while I don't consider Reggie's career to be all that impressive... it's much more impressive than either Maris or Foster. Of course I never meant to imply that either one should be considered on his level.

                              That much being said... in and of itself, I tend to be more impressed by great single season totals than great career totals. I'm a lot more impressed by somebody like George Sisler hitting .400 in two different seasons than by Lou Brock collecting 3000 hits despite never topping a .315 BA in any particular season. And I'd be a lot more impressed by somebody hitting 50 homers in one year (at least before 1990... Brady Anderson and Greg Vaughn don't impress me at all) than somebody hitting 25 a year for 20 years and topping 500... but never hitting more than 30 in a season.

                              I guess longevity's just not all that important to me... because as a baseball fan, you can't appreciate longevity while it's happening. Once a player's been around long enough to rack up the really impressive career totals, their skills have normally deteriorated to the point where they're not all that impressive to watch any more (Barry Bonds excepted). As a fan, you get excited by a guy getting 250 hits in a season, or 50 HR... but not so much by a guy hanging around till he's a bit player at age 42 to top 3000 hits, because by the time they've reached those totals, they're normally just that... a bit player. And bit players aren't exciting. When you think of how good somebody was, you normally think of them at their peak... not as the sum total of their career accomplishments.
                              "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                              Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by dgarza
                                I've never ever seen El Halo go so ape over defense as he has with Maris. Usually it's not an issue.
                                You're right. It normally doesn't concern me at all. But I've always said I'd use defense as a tie breaker... and when I've got two players with career OPS+'s one point apart, where one guy's SLG advantage is countered almost exactly by the other guy's OBP advantage... I consider that a tie. And when one guy had a reputation for not just above average defense, but exceptional defense... I consider it in a tie situation.
                                "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                                Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                                Comment

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