Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Kiki Cuyler

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by leecemark
    --He is best known as a high average hitter in an era when they were a dime a dozen. To be fair,he was one of the better guys at doing it. However, he wasn't nearly the best BA man of his time - leading the league only once. He had little power and barely over league average OBP. He was primarily a LF with no better than average defensive skills and he didn't steal bases. He isn't the top 100 in either Black or Grey Ink.
    --I don't think he was one of the very worst choices for Cooperstown, but he is closer to the bottom than the top. He barely cracks my top 25 LFers. Which numbers do you think merit him ranking higher?
    well, he's certainly not to tier. but in a 5 tier hall of fame, i think he should at least rank 3rd tier. a .330 BA with 2524 hits, which he led the league in twice. 4 top 5 finishes in MVP balloting. true, he only won one batting title but he finished in the top ten eight other times, including two runner-up finishes. he's in the top 50 in doubles and triples, putting him among very good company and ahead of some others.

    but who knows. maybe my HOF standards aren't high enough. i mean, i don't see any problem with rick ferrell or ross youngs. *shrug*

    Comment


    • #17
      --I'd say 4th rather than 3rd, but thats a pretty minor difference. Manush was much better than Ferrell or Youngs - they are the kinds of players I'd describe as bottom tier or simply bad choices.

      Comment


      • #18
        i wasn't comparing manush to youngs or ferrell, just using them as examples of oft-criticized descions that i have no problem with. ferrell's numbers wouldn't be HOF worthy at any other position, but he was a catcher, who i think you have to judge a bit differently than you would another position. i believe youngs would have made it in anyway had he lived and kept up his pace, and i can't see why he wouldn't have.

        Comment


        • #19
          baseballreference.com shows Manush elected to the HOF in 1964, while Cuyler was elected in 1968. I don't know why I thought that Manush and Cuyler went in together, but I remember it that way from my youth. Goes to show the accuracy of youthrul memories.

          Manush had a longer career than Cuyler, but he was an impatient hitter who didn't walk all that much. He was elected at a time where his .330 lifetime BA carried a lot of weight. I rate him ahead of Cuyler, who walked more, mainly on career length.

          If Cuyler is a HOFer, why isn't Don Mattingly, Dick Allen, and Will Clark? Those guys had short careers, and were, arguably, better players. I don't want to rip Cuyler's plaque out, but if he retired today, the BBWAA would not elect him; he'd be in danger of "one and done".
          "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

          NL President Ford Frick, 1947

          Comment


          • #20
            What about Red Faber? Edd Roush? Sam Rice? Zach Wheat? I think all of these guys and Cuyler and Willis are all lower-third, but definately deserving members.

            Manush is borderline, but I have no problem with him making it.
            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

            Comment


            • #21
              Most teams of their era would have been glad to have either Manush
              or Cuyler in their lineup. Joe McCarthy, the greatest manager in the
              history of the game, went out of his way to get Cuyler for the Cubs
              and Cuyler was one of his coaches with the Red Sox. Manush was
              also an asset to the game. One could say, if one were so inclined,
              that Albert Pujols is a home run hitter when home run hitters are
              a dime a dozen!

              My beef with the HOF is not over whose in, but whose not.
              In particular Lefty O'Doul and Gil Hodges!

              Brownie31

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tibber
                how about luke appling? or heinie manush, a guy i feel is really underated (and not just because i'm protective of my fellow alabamians.)
                I saw Appling play many times. For most of his career, he was the best position player on the White Sox, and one of the best short stops in MLB. Two AL batting titles, one at .388, and a career .310. How many short stops have those stats?

                Bob

                Comment


                • #23
                  Juding from his stats and other sources, Cuyler was a true all-arounder. So I don't see why he'd be undeserving of the honor.
                  "Age is a question of mind over matter--if you don't mind, it doesn't matter."
                  -Satchel Paige

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rsuriyop
                    Juding from his stats and other sources, Cuyler was a true all-arounder. So I don't see why he'd be undeserving of the honor.
                    I'm not in favor about ripping out Cuyler's plaque, but really: If Cuyler, why not Mattingly? If Cuyler, why not Will Clark? If Cuyler, why not Albert Belle? We won't even touch Ron Santo.

                    Cuyler is a short career guy who had a rep for loafing at times. He was NOT a team leader; he gets no boost from intangibles. He was a pretty good player who hit for a good BA in a high BA era who was elected to the HOF the winter after Yaz won the AL batting title at .301. He did not have exceptional defensive value; he was OK in the field. He is proof of Bill James' assertion that as time passes, the image of a player fades, and his induction to the HOF rests more and more on his batting stats, which remain constant.

                    I have a tough time viewing Cuyler as better than Mattingly or Clark. I view Albert Belle as CLEARLY superior. I would like some feedback on that. Those guys had the same career length as Cuyler, and much higher peaks.
                    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      --Cuyler was a second tier star at his peak and that isn't good enough for a guy with his shortish career. Very nice player, but there are probably a couple dozen outfielders outside the Hall of Fame who are as/more deserving.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Was always under the impression that Cuyler was Very good in Rf, Mr Manush OK in left, Roush great in cf.

                        As far's their relative Hof creds--borderliners, but am glad they're in.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          A side question, is "Kiki" pronounced "Key-Key" or "K'eye-K'eye"?
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                            A side question, is "Kiki" pronounced "Key-Key" or "K'eye-K'eye"?
                            It's the latter, rhyming with the first syllable of his last name.

                            My summation of Cuyler is exactly what I said about Hooper last week: he is not one of the Hall's egregious errors; he is not among their worst 20 players. However, he is clearly a "mistake" - if Cuyler were eligible now he would not rate among the top 50 candidates for the Hall.
                            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Or maybe he would, you're just not seein' it. *shrugs*

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X