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Any Chance for Juan Gone?

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  • Any Chance for Juan Gone?

    Anyone think he could make it one day? Being a two-time MVP certainly gives him at least a decent argument (even if there may have been better choices in those years, but that could really be argued in respect to many MVP winners).

    And while we're at it, how does he compare to Albert Belle?

  • #2
    I guess he could make it if he is able to keep it together for a couple of full seasons. I find it interesting that he is trying to come back again. He must really believe that he can play again. Amazingly, he is only 36 years old so maybe he can. I think he was signed by the Rangers when he was only 16!

    As for comparisons to Belle, they are similar according the similariry scores but I think most believe Belle was the superior player. Gonzalez was aided considerably by playing in Texas. You know its interesting but Belle had nearly as many PA as did Gonzalez in what seems like a much longer career.

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    • #3
      Belle was one of the most dominant hitters in baseball throughout his career.

      Juan Gone has no shot. Two MVP Awards don't equal a HOF case; ask Roger Maris if you don't believe me. Maris stood out over his contemporaries far more than Gonzalez has.

      When you've got people having selective memories over the exploits of the once-great Frank Thomas thanks to his string of injury-plagued seasons, you're certainly going to see more of the same in regards to Juan Gone. His would be an RBI-based case and that didn't work for Joe Carter.

      Throw in the "steroid thing" into the mix. (He was a Canseco teammate.)

      Gonzalez has only played more than 115 games 8 times in a 17-year career. Injuries have certainly limited his counting stats. He's been a non-factor for 5 years now. Only hit more than 24 HR once in the past 6 seasons. His playoff record is a mixed bag (two good series, two poor ones), but he's only been on 4 playoff teams, none of which got past the division series.

      In his prime, he just wasn't very dominant; led the league in HR twice, SLG once, doubles once, and RBI once.

      Gonzalez just signed a minor league contract with the Red Sox, by the way.

      His "greatness" rests on his slugging ability (five 40-HR seasons from 1992-98) but in that respect, he's just one of many. Very, very good for a few years and more or less pedestrian for the remainder of his career.

      With the "guardians of the Hall's integrity" mentality that has pervaded recent BBWAA decisions, I don't see Gonzalez even garnering 5% of the vote, two-time MVP or not.
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Chancellor
        Throw in the "steroid thing" into the mix. (He was a Canseco teammate.)
        I think that might actually be a good thing, because I don't believe Canseco ratted him out in his book. You'd think if he was juicing with Canseco then Jose would have told the world like he did with everyone else.

        Juan Gone has no shot. Two MVP Awards don't equal a HOF case; ask Roger Maris if you don't believe me. Maris stood out over his contemporaries far more than Gonzalez has
        I don't think Gonzalez is a HOFer, but I completely disagree with you here. Maris had two MVP awards and not much else, Gonzalez has six more dominant seasons along with the MVP seasons in 1996 and 1998. Gonzalez's raw numbers, because of time and place, look much better than Maris'.

        And Juan Gone was a better player than Maris. He had 8 dominant seasons, like I said, Maris had 3. Outside of the two MVPs, Maris' highest finish was 25th in 1964. Other than that he never received another MVP vote. Gonzalez has two more top 5 finishes other than '96 and '98. Gonzalez is 40th all time in MVP shares, Maris is 149th.

        Maris scores one point higher in Black Ink, but Gonzalez had many more good years and scores 105 on Gray Ink compared to Maris' total of 57.

        They really aren't even comparable, Gonzalez is a way better player than Maris.

        Still, though, the only way he gets in is if the writers fail to acknowledge how much his raw stats were inflated by time and place. They weren't able to look past that in the MVP vote, so there is a very good chance Juan Gone may get elected if he can avoid the steroid suspicions.
        Last edited by 538280; 03-19-2006, 05:49 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by 538280
          I think that might actually be a good thing, because I don't believe Canseco ratted him out in his book. You'd think if he was juicing with Canseco then Jose would have told the world like he did with everyone else.
          I quote from page 133 of "Juiced":

          "And then, not long after I got there, I sat down with Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, and Ivan Rodriguez, and educated them about steroids.

          Soon I was injecting all three of them. I personally injected each of those three guys many times, until they beacme more familiar with how to use a needle and were able to do it themselves..."
          Then on pages 135-136:

          "Palmeiro, Gonzalez, and Ivan Rodriguez all started asking me a lot of questions about steroids soon after I joined the Rangers. And after I'd given them a little schooling, they told me they all wanted to get some and give them a try. So I got them each a supply through my contacts, and helped them get used to the injection process. None of them at that pointed wanted their wives to know about it. They would bring their steroids to the ballpark and I would inject them there, the same way I used to inject McGwire back at the Oakland Coliseum...

          Raffy, Juan, and Ivan were definitely scared the first time I injected them, but after a while it became no big deal to them, either. And throughout my time on the team, they were on a combination of growth hormone and steroids - mostly Deca and Winstrol, but with a small dose of testosterone. Combining water-based and oil-based steroids that way, they needed two separate needles, too (They didn't take any pills. Those are probably the worst to take.)

          All three of them saw some gains in size too. Raffy who's naturally stocky, made a reasonable gain in size and weight. Juan, on the other hand, got bigger and bigger, and didnt' know when to stop. Eventually, he would grow all the way up to 255 pounds. He was very lean when he first started playing baseball in the major leagues, so when he started getting up to that size, it was too much, especially since he was playing the outfield every day. I myself never got over 250 pounds, and I'm taller than Juan at six foot four."
          So I think it's safe to say that Canseco ratted Gonzalez out. You don't think all of Gonzalez's injuries with hamstrings and muscles and stuff in the past few years is just coincidence do you? His body is quickly breaking down, just like McGwire's did, just like Sosa's, just like Brett Boone's, just like Giambi's a few years back, just like Bond's is now, and just like Canseco's.

          An interesting thing about Canseco's book is that it's been over a year since it was published and no lawsuits. He says a lot of things about a lot of players, and yet none have sued for defamation. A trial against Canseco would actually put these players reputations and past on trial, and the truth would probably come out and expose these guys. At least this way, the players can sit back and say "you can't believe Canseco, look at the source." As more time goes by, the more I'm convinced that there is a great deal of truth to Canseco's book, even if he erred in some of the specifics.

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          • #6
            Barring a pretty miraculous comeback, Juan Gone's HOF chances are long gone. He can't make it based on what he has done to this point, especially not under suspicion of steroid use.
            "The numbers are what brought me here; as it appears they brought you."
            - Danielle Rousseau

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            • #7
              Gonzalez has no real shot. Despite the HR's and MVP awards he just doesn't project as an HoFer to the voters.
              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DoubleX
                An interesting thing about Canseco's book is that it's been over a year since it was published and no lawsuits. He says a lot of things about a lot of players, and yet none have sued for defamation.
                There is nothing "interesting" about him not being sued. Celebrities rarely ever sue for defamation. It's a long and expensive process that puts more attention on the subject then people want. Defamation law suits are also extremely hard to prove, and I would imagine Canseco's allegations are nearly impossible to prove to be complete malicious lies.

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                • #9
                  I think Juan's chances are long since Gone.
                  He is not a HoFer in my opinion.
                  1968 and 1984, the greatest ever.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chancellor
                    Two MVP Awards don't equal a HOF case; ask Roger Maris if you don't believe me.
                    But even Maris got up to 43%. But he did stand out more so than Gonzalez did.

                    Gonzalez has a shot. Not a strong shot, but he's certainly not a "no-shot."
                    And then there's always the VC, where memories change in all directions and never seem to stay the same.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      anyone ever wonder why the highest OPS+, ERA+ have come in this era?

                      I think they need to go to the chalkboard and figure that out

                      Juan Gone will get to Cooperstown...if he buys a ticket

                      There are very few HOFers in this era

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                      • #12
                        The major weaknesses I see for him are the era, which takes down the value of his numbers, his ballpark, which does the same, and his plate discipline. Also, he really did not last all that long. The steroid allegations will further cloud things. I think people like Mcgwire and Bonds, who were first ballot before this happened will have no problems getting in, but someone like Juan, who was borderline may have difficulty. Had he put up the kind of numbers he did in the 70's it might be different, but when one plays in a high offense era in a high offense park that takes some air out. He was a Jim Rice type, high average, terrific power, lacking in plate discipline, and without a truly long career. He will be hurt in the eyes of voters by his ballpark. Still, five seasons of 35 or more HR and a BA over .300 are impressive numbers. If you added some plate discipline and some longevity I think he would be in. It may also hurt him that many people in the early and mid 90's expected him to cruise over 500 and maybe hit 600 HR. If you read what people were saying about Jim Rice in the late 70's it seemed a sure bet at that time that he would finnish with around 500 homeruns, but after 1979, with the exception of 83, he was never the same player. Juan had six big seasons, which do not look quite as big after plate discipline, era, and park effects are taken out. But if you only look at triple crown stats, he should be in.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There are much better hitters that will never make the HOF.

                          Juan was an average power hitter that playing during a time of great power hitters.I also believe he did not deserve the two MVP awards that set on his mantle.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by julusnc
                            Juan was an average power hitter that playing during a time of great power hitters.
                            I'm just curious what you mean by "average."

                            JG

                            #1 HRs - 2x
                            Top 5 HRs - 5x
                            Top 10 HRs - 7x

                            #1 SLG - 1x
                            Top 5 SLG - 7x
                            Top 10 SLG - 7x

                            But I agree that he should not have gotten either MVP awards.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dgarza
                              I'm just curious what you mean by "average."

                              JG

                              #1 HRs - 2x
                              Top 5 HRs - 5x
                              Top 10 HRs - 7x

                              #1 SLG - 1x
                              Top 5 SLG - 7x
                              Top 10 SLG - 7x

                              But I agree that he should not have gotten either MVP awards.
                              Average meaning he played at a time when 30 homerun and even 40 homerun players were a dime a dozen.A player needs to hit milestones or be very dominate in a time when someone like Palmeiro is not even considered worthy of the HOF (before the drug press).

                              I consider Joe Carter, Fred McGriff, Jose Canseco, Jim Thome, and several others to be better than Juan and the above guys have slim to no chance at a plaque in Cooperstown.

                              Comment

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