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Darrell Evans HOFer ?

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  • Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    His .248 BA isn't helping. What's really keeping Evans out of the HOF is the perception (accurate, in my mind) that he's not a career third baseman.
    He played 52% of his career games at 3B. As you say, he wasn't a career 3B.
    Last edited by JR Hart; 03-06-2018, 08:22 PM.
    This week's Giant

    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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    • -
      In fact, when I hear someone had a 200 hit season, I immediately question their plate discipline. There have been many unimpressive 200-hit seasons over the years, and a lot of them have been the result of a lack of BB's. Miguel Cabrera is one of the best contact hitters of his generation and has only recorded one 200 hit season.
      That's right 200 hit seasons are BAD! They are disfunctional. How dare the batter actually put the ball in play. Let's take a look at some these undisciplined scrubs.

      ROGERS HORNSBY come on Rogers, take a freaking walk. You had 7 200 hit seasons all in 154 game schedule.

      Hornsby needed to be more like Darrell Evans in 1922 and take a pitch. His 250 hits only accounted for 450 TB and an OPS+ of 207

      Rogers , you were sooooo undiscilpined in 1924. Your 227 hits only accounted for a 222 OPS+

      Hornsby should have been more selective in 1925. His 203 hits only accounted for an OPS+ of 210.

      I'm sure that Joe McCarthy wanted Hornsby to work the count more in 1929. Who needed those 149 RBI, 152 runs, and 409 TB that came with his 229 hits.

      TY COBB 9 200 hit seasons. There's another guy who needed hs plate discpline questioned. His 248 hits in 1911 only resulted in his scoring 149 runs.

      Why couldn't STAN MUSIAL have been a little more selective at the plate? Shame on him for his 6 200 hit seasons In 1948 his 230 hits only led to a 220 OPS+ and 429 TB.

      JESSE BURKETT 6 200 hit seasons

      The undisciplined BILL TERRY 5 200 hit seasons should have kept the bat on his shoulder more.

      Too Bad JOE DIMAGGIO didn't have Evans as a role model in 1937. He may have worked the count more. His 215 hits only led to 167 RBI.

      BBF darling TONY GWYNN 5 200 hit seasons

      The undisciplined HANK AARON had 3 200 hit seasons

      ALEX RODRIGUEZ should have been more selective in 1996.He really had a bad year. His 215 hits only led to 141 runs, .358 BA, and 379 TB.

      LOU GEHRIG had 200 hits 8 times

      All 3 times that BABE RUTH had 200 hits, his OPS+ was over 200.




      Last edited by JR Hart; 03-06-2018, 08:34 PM.
      This week's Giant

      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post


        I'll finish your sentence...just because it's not that great of a feat. I saw Gene Tenace play for SD for 3 years when I lived there. He was awful. He would hit .220 and have a .398 OBP. He killed more rallies just because he could never get a hit. Guyas like Tenace and Evans are overrated. Eventually somebody has to get a hit. I don't care how many immaginary runs he scores or how many replacement players he beats out, Evans wasn't that good and James was wrong about him.
        You have a good memory, JR. I looked up Tenace's stats in San Diego. In four seasons with the Padres Tenace hit .237/.403/.422, 136 OPS+.

        BA/OBP/BB
        1977: .233/.415/125
        1978: .224/.392/105
        1979: .263/.403/101
        1980: .222/.399/92

        Tenace led the NL in walks in 1977. My question is why didn't pitchers throw more strikes to Teance? It seems contact hitting was something Teance was very poor at.
        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

          You have a good memory, JR. I looked up Tenace's stats in San Diego. In four seasons with the Padres Tenace hit .237/.403/.422, 136 OPS+.

          BA/OBP/BB
          1977: .233/.415/125
          1978: .224/.392/105
          1979: .263/.403/101
          1980: .222/.399/92

          Tenace led the NL in walks in 1977. My question is why didn't pitchers throw more strikes to Teance? It seems contact hitting was something Teance was very poor at.
          Every batter - no matter how bad, get thrown balls. Usually multiple per PA. Because pitchers can't throw meat down the middle over and over and over. A guy with power like Tennce would hit 50 homeruns that way. Pitchers try to hit corners. Hitting corners is a very hard thing to do. Guys with good plate vision recognize balls and take them and get on base and hitters with bad plate vision don't and hit them into weak-**s groundouts. That is why walking is a repeatable skill - its not just the fear factor.

          Tenace didn't swing at balls and walked a lot (very good thing cuz swinging at balls is a very bad thing cuz getting on base is better than the, you know hitting.150 on balls off the plate, like - no der)
          When he did have strikes, he swung hard. He missed A LOT and had a low average but when he connected, he hit the ball for XBH.


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          • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

            Every batter - no matter how bad, get thrown balls. Usually multiple per PA. Because pitchers can't throw meat down the middle over and over and over. A guy with power like Tennce would hit 50 homeruns that way. Pitchers try to hit corners. Hitting corners is a very hard thing to do. Guys with good plate vision recognize balls and take them and get on base and hitters with bad plate vision don't and hit them into weak-**s groundouts. That is why walking is a repeatable skill - its not just the fear factor.

            Tenace didn't swing at balls and walked a lot (very good thing cuz swinging at balls is a very bad thing cuz getting on base is better than the, you know hitting.150 on balls off the plate, like - no der)
            When he did have strikes, he swung hard. He missed A LOT and had a low average but when he connected, he hit the ball for XBH.

            Yes, when Tenace did make contact he hit for a VERY low BA usually. It's clear that making contact was an serious issue for Tenace. And he mostly swung at strikes which means he struggled to make contact with pitches IN the strike zone. It just weird that a hitter known to struggle to get hits with pitches in the strike zone would get walked so much. He had some power but he wasn't an elite home run hitter like Johnny Bench.
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
              He had some power but he wasn't an elite home run hitter like Johnny Bench.
              Not much difference between Bench and Tenace for HR frequency.

              Tenace homered every 21.8 AB
              Bench homered every 19.7 AB
              .


              19th Century League Champion
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              • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                Yes, when Tenace did make contact he hit for a VERY low BA usually.
                Not true. When Tenace did not strike out he hit .313.
                .


                19th Century League Champion
                1900s League Champion
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                1930s League Division Winner
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                • Tenace or Tenacci, a Pronounced Success

                  By RED SMITH OCT. 15, 1972
                  The article as it originally appeared. October 15, 1972, Page 2The New York Times Archives
                  CINCINNATI, Oct. 14—He was born Fury Gene Tenace 26 years ago last Tuesday, but the young man isn't sure where the first name comes from. “Apparently my father just liked horses,” he said today, and his drooping brown mustache curled upward into a sickle moon of happiness. Fury may sound like a cowboy's mount in a Western movie, but Fury Gene Tenace looks like the athlete he is190 lithe pounds on a 6‐foot chassis, a high school football player who went on to play all nine positions on baseball teams before settling down as the regular catcher of the Oakland A's.

                  Tenace played in a World Series game for the first time in his life today. He hit a fast ball for a home run on his first time at bat and a hanging curve for a home run on his second, and those are the principal reasons why Oakland beat the Cincinnati Reds, 3‐2. Never since Abner Doubleday converted a cow pasture to unnatural uses had any player before Tenace hit home runs in his first two World Series chances.

                  “That didn't enter my mind,” the young man said, and his white teeth gleamed.

                  Steamboat Gets Round the Bend

                  Except for his family from Lucasville, Ohio—there were about 15 of his kinfolk in the stands, he said—precious few of the 52,918 customers in Riverfront Stadium had ever laid eyes on Tenace before this afternoon, and fewer still knew how to pronounce his name. Most fans and ballplayers pronounce it “Tennis,” but in the family it is “Tenochi” and it was spelled Tenacci until Gene's grandfather came over from Italy. Just to make it hard, grandfather nicknamed the boy “Steamboat” because as kid he tended to lumber like a sidewheeler.

                  With his kingsize mustache and the brown curls that escape from under his green‐and‐gold cap, Tenace fits easily into the Oakland group, which is by all odds the hairiest team in baseball. When half a dozen of them put their heads together, a covey of quail could hide from hawks their whiskers. They wear their names across their shoulder blades, and if you're a student of baseball history you keep expecting to see shirts reading “Al G. Spalding” and “Alexander Cartwright.”

                  With his Gaylord Ravenal brush, Tenace could pass for a Mississippi riverboat gambler. He's cool enough for that role, as he demonstrated under questioning from the press.

                  “How many times in your career have you hit two home runs in a game?”

                  “Never.”

                  “Growing up in Ohio, were you a fan of the Cincinnati Reds?”

                  “No, a Yankee fan. Why? I guess I liked pinstripes.” They knew little about his background, so they asked.

                  “My father was a coal miner in Pittsburgh about nine years.” Gene was born in Russellton, Pa., near Butler in the Pittsburgh area. “Him and my grandfather were coal miners. Then my grandfather was killed in a mine and my father went into the construction business.”

                  After high school Gene spent six years in the minors en route to Oakland, and one day with the Peninsula team in the Carolina League he played all nine positions.

                  What You Call a Willing Worker

                  That was back in 1968, but Ile still fills in cheerfully wherever needed. During the American League playoffs, he was needed at'second base because his deep‐thinking manager, Dick Williams, had removed all available infielders for pinch‐batters. Playing that unfamiliar position last Wednesday, he'thopped a throw in a double‐play ball and this was a factor in Detroit's winning rally. Had his two home runs today compensated him for that misadventure?

                  The smile became a laugh. “I don't remember dropping the ball.”

                  His work at bat wasn't his only contribution today. With Cincinnati's Bobby Tolan on first base in the third inning, lie called for a pickoft play and Tolan was cut down at second base. When Dave Concepcion led off with the single in the seventh, Tenace signaled for a pitchout and threw the Cincinnati shortstop out on an attempted steal.

                  They asked if he envied John Bench his fame as a catcher for Cincinnati.

                  “I believe Johnny Bench deserves all the publicity he gets.”

                  “John Bench is the greatest catcher I have ever seen,” said Oakland's Dick Williams, “until I saw Gene Tenace swing his bat today.”
                  .


                  19th Century League Champion
                  1900s League Champion
                  1910s League Champion

                  1930s League Division Winner
                  1950s League Champion
                  1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
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                  1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                  1980s League Champion
                  All Time Greats League Champion

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                    Yes, when Tenace did make contact he hit for a VERY low BA usually. It's clear that making contact was an serious issue for Tenace. And he mostly swung at strikes which means he struggled to make contact with pitches IN the strike zone. It just weird that a hitter known to struggle to get hits with pitches in the strike zone would get walked so much. He had some power but he wasn't an elite home run hitter like Johnny Bench.
                    That was what I was saying : Everybody gets balls. Every batter gets lots of balls. Even poor ones. And Tennace with a well-a ove average slugging% was not even a poor one. Yes, guys like Bonds will get a lot more, but every player gets lots of chances to take balls. Tennace did.
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                    • Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                      Not much difference between Bench and Tenace for HR frequency.

                      Tenace homered every 21.8 AB
                      Bench homered every 19.7 AB

                      Bench had 389 career homers, a decisive advantage over the 201 by Tenace. It will always take more skill to get a base hit as opposed to a walk, so we can't get too carried away with OPS. It's a fundamental reality of the game which will never change. Any person who has played baseball, or watched thousands of hours of the game would agree.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Al Oliver View Post


                        Bench had 389 career homers, a decisive advantage over the 201 by Tenace.
                        The fact remains that bench only homered a little more frequently per AB than Tenace did. Tenace just had a phenomenal batting eye. And Bench himself said so after the 1972 world series.

                        Originally posted by Al Oliver View Post
                        It will always take more skill to get a base hit as opposed to a walk, so we can't get too carried away with OPS. It's a fundamental reality of the game which will never change. Any person who has played baseball, or watched thousands of hours of the game would agree.
                        I played, watched tens of thousands of hours, and have umpired for 23 years and I DO NOT agree with you. Even so, it's not about what takes more skill, it's about the value of each act on the field.

                        BTW, if there was ever a player who walked in every plate appearance for the entire season he would be BY FAR the most valuable player in the league.

                        Last edited by SavoyBG; 03-12-2018, 07:05 PM.
                        .


                        19th Century League Champion
                        1900s League Champion
                        1910s League Champion

                        1930s League Division Winner
                        1950s League Champion
                        1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                        1960s League Division Winner
                        1970s League Champion
                        1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                        1980s League Champion
                        All Time Greats League Champion

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                          I don't recall either of those "records" being prominently mentioned by voters who omitted Blyleven or Rice from their ballots.
                          I don't recall many voters at any time commenting publicly regarding their reasons for voting for/against any nominee.

                          Comment


                          • Ignore. Computer issues.
                            Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 03-13-2018, 07:02 PM.
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                            • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                              He played 52% of his career games at 3B. As you say, he wasn't a career 3B.
                              Also I'm guessing his 1973 season was seen as a fluke season, which it was. His hitting was never close to that in any other year until he became a first baseman later on. He is kind of an Adrian Beltre without the defense....lots of meh type of seasons mixed with one super one, then a late peak

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by willshad View Post

                                Also I'm guessing his 1973 season was seen as a fluke season, which it was. His hitting was never close to that in any other year until he became a first baseman later on. He is kind of an Adrian Beltre without the defense....lots of meh type of seasons mixed with one super one, then a late peak
                                without the defense and without actually playing a lot of 3rd base.
                                Last edited by JR Hart; 03-13-2018, 07:26 PM.
                                This week's Giant

                                #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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