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  • Originally posted by Skin & Bones
    First off, McGriff was a rent-a-player who was good for a while, but never great.

    How was Mcgriff " Never great " ?
    I agree. I think players who remain at a consistent level over a long period of time tend to get passed off as only longevity and never being truly great. McGriff is an example of this. So is Eddie Murray, Rafael Palmeiro, Pete Rose, even Hank Aaron to some extent. I find it hard to see how McGriff wasn't great in 1989, 1992, and 1994 at least.

    I think McGriff should make the HOF, but one thing that I think will hurt him is that he was in his prime in the late 80s/early 90s, before the recent HR explosion began. Given how the BBWAA still seems to not really understand adjusting for context, those things will hurt his chances.

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    • Originally posted by 538280
      I agree. I think players who remain at a consistent level over a long period of time tend to get passed off as only longevity and never being truly great. McGriff is an example of this. So is Eddie Murray, Rafael Palmeiro, Pete Rose, even Hank Aaron to some extent. I find it hard to see how McGriff wasn't great in 1989, 1992, and 1994 at least.

      I think McGriff should make the HOF, but one thing that I think will hurt him is that he was in his prime in the late 80s/early 90s, before the recent HR explosion began. Given how the BBWAA still seems to not really understand adjusting for context, those things will hurt his chances.
      I completely Agree.

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      • --McGriff I support. He was one of the primier HR hitters in baseball for a decade. Unfortunately for him, his peak ended just as HR totals exploded and his seasonal numbers don't look as impressive as they should. Harold Baines shouldn't get a vote. If he mays the Hall, that will be good reason to stop caring who is in.

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        • Dawson has the numbers, he will get in and deserves to be in. Baines gets in on longevity, hit and RBI total and life avg. Dawson is like a Billy Williams situation. Once these 2 guys are in, Pinson goes back to being the highest hit guy who will never get in, followed by Oliver, Alomar, Staub, Buckner and Parker. All those guys won't get in. You're not going to keep Baines and his 2866 hits and 1628 RBIs out, no way no how. Oh and McGriff will be a shoe-in

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          • Originally posted by 538280
            I agree. I think players who remain at a consistent level over a long period of time tend to get passed off as only longevity and never being truly great. McGriff is an example of this. So is Eddie Murray, Rafael Palmeiro, Pete Rose, even Hank Aaron to some extent. I find it hard to see how McGriff wasn't great in 1989, 1992, and 1994 at least.

            I think McGriff should make the HOF, but one thing that I think will hurt him is that he was in his prime in the late 80s/early 90s, before the recent HR explosion began. Given how the BBWAA still seems to not really understand adjusting for context, those things will hurt his chances.

            I'll give you those three years. He was great in 1989, 1992, and 1994. I actually didn't compare statistics when I wrote that, which even at the time, I knew was foolish of me. I don't think McGriff is a shoe-in, as someone said, and in fact I don't think he will get in. Should he? Yeah, I guess. Certainly him more than Harold Baines, who needs to stay out. By the way, JimAbbott said something about Baines getting in on "life avg.". I hope he doesn't mean batting average. Personally, I don't find .289 to be too fantastic. As I said before, Tim Salmon is by no means a hall of famer, Tim Salmon has been a better player than Harold Baines. I'm okay with putting guys in who were very good for a while, but Baines was just a little above average for the majority of his lengthy career. He's not a Hall of Famer.
            "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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            • --Baines was a slightly above average hitter with ZERO defensive value and little to offer on the bases for most of his career. Just say no.

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              • Originally posted by leecemark
                --Baines was a slightly above average hitter with ZERO defensive value and little to offer on the bases for most of his career. Just say no.

                Thank You Leecemark, for being a voice of reason.
                "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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                • A guy with 1628 RBI and 2866 hits kept out of the hall? LOL, not a chance. Baines gets in for sure

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                  • Originally posted by JimAbbott
                    A guy with 1628 RBI and 2866 hits kept out of the hall? LOL, not a chance. Baines gets in for sure


                    Seriously, man, does anything outside of counting stats (and raw ones at that-you seem to be completely ignorant of context adjustments as well) mean anything to you?

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                    • Originally posted by JimAbbott
                      A guy with 1628 RBI and 2866 hits kept out of the hall? LOL, not a chance. Baines gets in for sure
                      Let me ask you this: You put Baines in, do you put Edgar Martinez in? Better numbers outside of RBI and Hit totals.
                      "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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                      • There is a case to be made for edgar. His .312 avg helps his cause but he's light on HRs RBIs and hits. .515 SLG and .418 OBP are solid and he has 2 batting titles under his belt. Might have to put the guy in there
                        Last edited by JimAbbott; 09-10-2006, 11:15 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by JimAbbott
                          There is a case to be made for edgar. His .312 avg helps his cause but he's light on HRs RBIs and hits. .515 SLG and .418 OBP are solid and he has 2 batting titles under his belt. Might have to put the guy in there
                          Well, .418 is a little better than a "solid" OBP. Only 20 guys in the history of the game have bettered that.

                          The reason why I bring Edgar Martinez up is because Harold Baines was mostly a DH. Edgar Martinez has better numbers, outside of counting stats, than Harold Baines does. Really, all other stats show Edgar Martinez to be a FAR superior player than Baines.
                          "Any ballplayer that don't sign autographs for little kids ain't an American. He's a communist." -Rogers Hornsby

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                          • As a native Marylander, I was a huge fan of Baines. He was from the area and had several tours of duty with the Orioles. He also is one of helluva nice guy. That being said, Harold doesnt belong in the Hall, he hung around forever and was a truly one dimensional player after he busted up his knees in the early 80's. He could fall out of bed and hit a line drive but couldnt play the field, run, or do much of anything else.

                            As for Dawson I really think he belongs, while perhaps overated in the field he did indeed deserve most of those 8 gold gloves. Not to mention Andre was a burner on the basepaths until he knees gave way after his first 7-8 years in the league. If not for that damn Olympic stadium concrete field that destroyed his ligaments, he would have stolen 500 bases. His hitting speaks for itself, Reggie Jackson and Willie Stargell struck out a lot and hit into double plays too, I wouldnt say they dont belong. Another guy who I think really suffers due to the inflated steroid era which came at the end of the Hawks career. Kind of hard to say Hawk belongs when guys who look like pro wrestlers are hitting 70 a year

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                            • Originally posted by shawnofthedead
                              As a native Marylander, I was a huge fan of Baines. He was from the area and had several tours of duty with the Orioles. He also is one of helluva nice guy. That being said, Harold doesnt belong in the Hall, he hung around forever and was a truly one dimensional player after he busted up his knees in the early 80's. He could fall out of bed and hit a line drive but couldnt play the field, run, or do much of anything else.

                              As for Dawson I really think he belongs, while perhaps overated in the field he did indeed deserve most of those 8 gold gloves. Not to mention Andre was a burner on the basepaths until he knees gave way after his first 7-8 years in the league. If not for that damn Olympic stadium concrete field that destroyed his ligaments, he would have stolen 500 bases. His hitting speaks for itself, Reggie Jackson and Willie Stargell struck out a lot and hit into double plays too, I wouldnt say they dont belong. Another guy who I think really suffers due to the inflated steroid era which came at the end of the Hawks career. Kind of hard to say Hawk belongs when guys who look like pro wrestlers are hitting 70 a year
                              The " steroid era " really has nothing to do with why Dawson doesn't belong. Did it ever occur to you that he may not be good enough ?

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                              • I am not a Baines HOF supporter, but he actually played over 1000 games in the outfield and was mentioned as a plus defender at one point. He averaged over 10 outfield assists for 6 years and had 15 in his last season while fielding above the league average. Funny because that was his last year as a regular in the outfield.

                                Also, it may be hard to believe but from '82 to '87 he was among the top players voted on by his peers as the most dangerous hitter in the league-ranking behind Brett, Murray and later Mattingly, but finishing 3-4 each year in a poll done by baseball digest.

                                But Edgar Martinez is way ahead. a 156 OPS+ puts him in very select company especially through about 9000 plate appearances.

                                Originally posted by leecemark
                                --Baines was a slightly above average hitter with ZERO defensive value and little to offer on the bases for most of his career. Just say no.

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