Pre-1943 Vets' turn

[henrich]

Reynolds is the only one I wouldn't vote for. Outstanding ballot.

I agree on the outstanding ballot, I wouldn't vote for Ferrell, but otherwise I could see a case for the others. Is there a backstory on Ferrell?

[BlueBlood]

Ferrell was an excellent hitter, the greatest hitting pitcher other than Mr. Ruth. Your ranking system can't give him that extra credit, but it certainly shoots his ERA+ way up if that were factored in. The guy is about exactly on par with Carl Mays when you factor in the hitting. Their career length, ERA+ and Win Shares all come out to about the same result.

He's going to be an interesting case. There will obviously be people arguing on his behalf. The fact that he made the ballot shows that people are indeed focusing on these modern metrics but it'll be interesting to see how many voters will scoff at his high ERA without realizing that it was great in context and that his value was even greater given his bat.

[jalbright]

Interesting, a few of those are a little odd.....

#1: Here's which ones are in the BBF HOF:

Bill Dahlen
Wes Ferrell
Joe Gordon
Sherry Magee
Carl Mays
Deacon White

I can't recall either Allie Reynolds or Mickey Vernon earning votes in a recent election, so that shows you what we think of those candidacies. Bucky Walters had seven votes in the last election (41.2%). Vern Stephens had nine (52.9%).


#3: The Ultimate Quest For Candidates Results

Bill Dahlen (#5, #1 of pre-1943)
Deacon White (#10, #3 of pre-1943)
Sherry Magee (#11, #4 of pre-1943)
Joe Gordon (#14, #5 of pre-1943)
Wes Ferrell/Carl Mays (tied at #23 with Larry Doyle, making it a three-way tie for #10 of pre-1943 candidates)
Vern Stephens (#30, #15 of pre-1943 candidates)
Bucky Walters (#61, #35 of pre-1943 candidates
Mickey Vernon (Tied at #71, #40 of pre-1943 candidates)

Allie Reynolds is unranked.

Mickey Vernon has had a little support from time to time in the BBF HOF voting, but we're talking one or two votes at a time type support, IIRC. I know he's gotten a vote a couple of times, or he wouldn't be on my spreadsheet for counting the votes. I can't support him, much less Reynolds. I support Stephens and Walters, but they're not as strong as the top six. Mays probably loses out for the Ray Chapman incident. It's hard to say who makes it from the remaining five. Dahlen may be in the best position, as Magee has to deal with being a deadball guy, Ferrell with the ERA over 4 (though in a very high octane time), Gordon with the time lost to war, and White with the bias against the early guys. I'd love to see at least three of that top five make it.

[jalbright]

I guess the two I'd most like to see there instead of Vernon and Reynolds are Hines and Stovey. That would give the 19th century a little more representation, which would be fitting.

[Chadwick]

I think it's a safe bet that this committee will elect at least one person and that will almost certainly be an improvement on the old system. I can't wait for December 8th!

[dgarza]

If there was only 1 player voted in from this bunch, I'd like it to be White. Not because I necessarily think he's the best player, but because I think there's more of a chance he will fall through the cracks again in the future if he is not elected in. 19th Century players are more likely to be forgotten, and it's a shame.

[Freakshow]

It's a decent list, an improvement over past efforts. It's still heavily slanted towards the more recent players. Fully half of these players were active in 1950; only two played before 1900. It indicates little effort to research all of the first eight decades of professional league play to identify the best candidates. It perpetuates the sorry reputation of the HOF as a historical institution.

If they elect at least one of Dahlen, White, Magee or Gordon it will, again, be an improvement over past efforts.

[Chadwick]

If there was only 1 player voted in from this bunch, I'd like it to be White. Not because I necessarily think he's the best player, but because I think there's more of a chance he will fall through the cracks again in the future if he is not elected in. 19th Century players are more likely to be forgotten, and it's a shame.

Deacon White was originally considered by the Veterans Committee in the 1940s, but never quite got the trigger pulled on him and the committee never went back and revisted the case, despite White having the support of a simple majority of the voters. It would be great if that were reconciled in December!

[BlueBlood]

Voter 1: Magee, Gordon, White, Dahlen
Voter 2: Magee, Gordon, White, Dahlen
Voter 3: Magee, Gordon, White, Mays
Voter 4: Magee, Gordon, White, Mays
Voter 5: Magee, Gordon, White, Mays
Voter 6: Magee, Gordon, Mays, Dahlen
Voter 7: Magee, Gordon, Mays, Dahlen
Voter 8: Magee, Gordon, Mays, Dahlen
Voter 9: White, Dahlen, Magee, Gordon
Voter 10: White, Dahlen, Mays, ?
Voter 11: White, Dahlen, Mays, ?
Voter 12: White, Dahlen, Mays, ?


They could elect five if they're all of outstanding tactical genius.

[Chadwick]

Voter 1: Magee, Gordon, White, Dahlen
Voter 2: Magee, Gordon, White, Dahlen
Voter 3: Magee, Gordon, White, Mays
Voter 4: Magee, Gordon, White, Mays
Voter 5: Magee, Gordon, White, Mays
Voter 6: Magee, Gordon, Mays, Dahlen
Voter 7: Magee, Gordon, Mays, Dahlen
Voter 8: Magee, Gordon, Mays, Dahlen
Voter 9: White, Dahlen, Magee, Gordon
Voter 10: White, Dahlen, Mays, ?
Voter 11: White, Dahlen, Mays, ?
Voter 12: White, Dahlen, Mays, ?


They could elect five if they're all of outstanding tactical genius.

The odds of that are something akin to Pete Rose passing up a free weekend in Atlantic City.

[KCGHOST]

I have zero faith this will work. I would just as soon call it a day on "veteran" selections. All we are doing is giving these guys another chance to elect the wrong person(s).

I would love to see Dahlen and White selected but at the risk of it being Vernon and Reynolds I'll pass.

[BlueBlood]

Really, what argument for Reynolds will anyone there come up with besides "He was on six championship teams"?

And my prediction is that they'll elect Joe Gordon & Bill Dahlen.

[henrich]

I'd be okay with those 2

Really, what argument for Reynolds will anyone there come up with besides "He was on six championship teams"?

And my prediction is that they'll elect Joe Gordon & Bill Dahlen.

I like your first scenario better with 5 of them in.

6 championships seasons...not a lot of people can say that, what 40 in the history of baseball? I'm guessing, but I don't think I'm that far off. If anyone has that data, I'd be curious what the answer is..

I'm with Classic, I can't wait to selection day!

[BlueBlood]

My reasoning behind people actually being elected this time concerns the crop of candidates. A lot of these are the best of their field and held in high esteem by those that use modern tools to rate players. It just seems far more researched than the previous groups which were a pretty mixed bag with a lot of idiosyncratic choices.

[henrich]

amen brother

My reasoning behind people actually being elected this time concerns the crop of candidates. A lot of these are the best of their field and held in high esteem by those that use modern tools to rate players. It just seems far more researched than the previous groups which were a pretty mixed bag with a lot of idiosyncratic choices.

Here, Here!