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  • Pre-1943 Vets' turn

    Perhaps the beginning of some long overdue players finally getting in.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns
    Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
    Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

  • #2
    That article had a typo. It named a player whose career reaches back to the 1870s.

    Comment


    • #3
      question

      Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
      Perhaps the beginning of some long overdue players finally getting in.

      http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns
      Do you know how many the committee members can vote for on their ballot? I hope Gordon gets in, but a lot of worthy candidates.

      Comment


      • #4
        progress

        Originally posted by dgarza View Post
        That article had a typo. It named a player whose career reaches back to the 1870s.
        to the 1860s, actually, and he should have been elected more than 70 years ago


        Henrich,
        Vote for 0 to 4 of 10 candidates. In a vote by mail it would be unlikely to elect anyone but this committee meets in person. They will have opportunity to discuss candidates and notice who enjoys and who lacks support; even to withhold voting until it seems appropriate.


        Quoting that Cooperstown press release
        10 players whose careers began before 1943 who will be considered by the Hall of Fame’s [ ? ] constituted Veterans Committee when it meets on Dec. 7.
        Is there a word missing? which one?
        The format of the Veterans Committee had been changed twice since 2001, when charges of cronyism accompanied the election of Bill Mazeroski.
        That is unusually blunt.


        So they have nominated six from the 1930s/40s plus White, Dahlen, Magee, and Mays --certainly the one most commonly named shameful omission and maybe the four most commonly named omissions from that time.
        or times, plural. Yes it seems like a typo, suddenly nominating the Deacon after three times making little brother Will White the earliest of 200 nominees, attracting much ridicule (once they elected the wrong Wright, now they nominated the wrong White!).

        For those of you not scoring at home, here are the earliest players on the three recent VC ballots, each time among about 25 second-stage nominees.

        2003: Mays, Ken Williams, Bob Meusel
        2005: Joe Wood, Mays
        2007: Mays, Lefty O'Doul

        White, Dahlen, and Magee precede all of them.

        This is progress, largely due to the change in structure. This nominating committee previously handled the stage one where there were 174 players whom they nominated all three times, including 22 with debuts before Joe Wood; 13 with debuts before Bill Dahlen.
        Last edited by Paul Wendt; 08-25-2008, 04:06 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks!

          Paul,

          I appreciate the info, I had lost track of the most recent data on that one-it's been changing so much during the aughts.

          Comment


          • #6
            oops, here is the Press Release

            Excuse me, that article was not the NBHOFM Press Release 3:48 pm but a yahoo.com news item with dateline Cooperstown.

            Quoting that Cooperstown press release
            10 players whose careers began before 1943 who will be considered by the Hall of Fame’s [ ? ] constituted Veterans Committee when it meets on Dec. 7.
            Is there a word missing? which one?

            The format of the Veterans Committee had been changed twice since 2001, when charges of cronyism accompanied the election of Bill Mazeroski.
            That is unusually blunt.
            No word is missing. The word "constituted" appears to be inserted in a quotation from the press release. The release says, "The 12 members who will serve as the voting committee for pre-1943 players will be announced soon." (Perhaps the yahoo reporter omitted "to-be-" or "yet-un".)

            The release also provides a two-sentence blurb on each nominee, shortest for Magee and longest for Walters.

            It does not mention charges of cronyism, nor even the fact of two recent revisions to the process.

            Comment


            • #7
              Interesting, a few of those are a little odd.....

              #1: Here's which ones are in the BBF HOF:

              Bill Dahlen
              Wes Ferrell
              Joe Gordon
              Sherry Magee
              Carl Mays
              Deacon White


              I can't recall either Allie Reynolds or Mickey Vernon earning votes in a recent election, so that shows you what we think of those candidacies. Bucky Walters had seven votes in the last election (41.2%). Vern Stephens had nine (52.9%).


              #2: The 2003 version of uber-human Bill James ranks the ten by their position as follows:

              Carl Mays (38th at P)
              Wes Ferrell (40th at P)
              Bucky Walters (69th at P)
              Allie Reynolds (Not in the Top 100 Pitchers!)

              Gordon (16th at 2B)
              Dahlen (21st at SS)
              Magee (21st at RF)
              Stephens (22nd at SS)
              Vernon (23rd at 1B)
              White (76th at 3B, note that he spent a great deal at C and that the James rank doesn't include the 1871-1875 seasons)


              #3: The Ultimate Quest For Candidates Results

              Bill Dahlen (#5, #1 of pre-1943)
              Deacon White (#10, #3 of pre-1943)
              Sherry Magee (#11, #4 of pre-1943)
              Joe Gordon (#14, #5 of pre-1943)
              Wes Ferrell/Carl Mays (tied at #23 with Larry Doyle, making it a three-way tie for #10 of pre-1943 candidates)
              Vern Stephens (#30, #15 of pre-1943 candidates)
              Bucky Walters (#61, #35 of pre-1943 candidates
              Mickey Vernon (Tied at #71, #40 of pre-1943 candidates)

              Allie Reynolds is unranked.

              #4: Hall of Merit's ranking of pre-1943 candidates:

              #1: Bill Dahlen
              #2: Deacon White
              #12: Sherry Magee
              #14: Joe Gordon
              #19: Wes Ferrell

              Unranked are Bucky Walters (5th in the 2008 elections), Carl Mays (finished a lowly 39th in the 2008 elections) and Reynolds who earned absolutely zero votes.


              Giving One Point To Everyone I Deem To Be In The Top Four In Each Category:

              Bill Dahlen: 4 Points (BBF HOF, UQFC, Bill James and HOM eligibles)
              Joe Gordon: 4 Points (BBF HOF, UQFC, Bill James and HOM eligibles)
              Deacon White: 3 Points (BBF HOF, UQFC and HOM eligibles)
              Sherry Magee: 3 Points (BBF HOF, UQFC and HOM eligibles)
              Wes Ferrell: 2 Points (BBF HOF and Bill James)
              Carl Mays: 2 Points (BBF HOF and Bill James)
              Allie Reynolds: 0 Points
              Vern Stephens: 0 Points
              Mickey Vernon: 0 Points
              Bucky Walters: 0 Points

              Magee & Stephens don't earn points from the James-o-meter because the rankings of Mays/Ferrell are well over the line for pitchers and certainly above sub-Top 20 ranks at any other position.

              It becomes clear that Dahlen, Gordon, White & Magee are most deserving of votes. Freakshow's project had them as four of the five best candidates from this era, so we couldn't have landed a much better ballot unless Paul Hines was involved.

              Allie Reynolds is an absolute joke of a pick. He's here only because of a phenomenal amount of WS rings. But hey, weak candidates such as this should only help people check off the boxes next to the big four.
              Last edited by BlueBlood; 08-25-2008, 04:59 PM.
              1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

              1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
              1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
              1966 1974 1977 1978


              1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
              2013 2014


              1996 2006

              Comment


              • #8
                recent VC elections : how pre-1943 fared

                Originally posted by BlueBlood View Post
                . . .
                #4: Hall of Merit's ranking of pre-1943 candidates:

                #1: Bill Dahlen
                #2: Deacon White
                #12: Sherry Magee
                #14: Joe Gordon
                #19: Wes Ferrell

                Unranked are Bucky Walters (5th in the 2008 elections), Carl Mays (finished a lowly 39th in the 2008 elections) and Reynolds who earned absolutely zero votes.
                That Hall of Merit special project ranked the 21 HOM members who are eligible for this pre-1943 veterans committee meeting. Walters, Mays, Reynolds, and also Vern Stephens, Mickey Vernon from the new V.C. slate were not ranked because they are not in the HOM. Instead they are eligible for the annual HOM election where 101 players who retired before 2003 earned points last winter.

                The Hall of Merit elects three so Bucky Walters, 5th in that election, is #2 among the incumbents who will be eligible for 2009. The other nominees stand Mays #37, Stephens #42, Vernon #93, Reynolds no points (not listed in the top 15 by any of the 50 HOM voters).

                Hall of Merit top page (for the annual election, come back in November)

                Allie Reynolds is an absolute joke of a pick. He's here only because of a phenomenal amount of WS rings. But hey, weak candidates such as this should only help people check off the boxes next to the big four.
                Reynolds scored 20% support in the 2003 v.c. election with 80-some voters, all members of the Hall of Fame and all honored baseball writers and broadcasters. Hereafter a small committee will meet in person.

                Here are the recent V.C. results for pre-1943 players
                2003
                19 Joe Gordon (7th of 26 candidates)
                17 Marty Marion
                16 Carl Mays
                16 Allie Reynolds
                12 Wes Ferrell
                8 Ken Williams
                6 Bob Meusel

                2005
                16 Marion (10th of 25)
                14 Gordon
                12 Mays
                9 Ferrell
                2 Joe Wood (earliest player on any of the three ballots)

                2007
                15 Lefty O'Doul (9th of 27)
                14 Mickey Vernon
                12 Cecil Travis
                11 Marion
                10 Gordon
                7 Ferrell
                6 Mays

                16 votes is 20%, which is enough support that they should have returned Reynolds to the ballot with Marty Marion, Gordon, Mays, and Ferrell. That's all I have to say in his favor as a candidate!

                From these incomplete results it is clear that aggregate support for these older candidates was gradually eroding with the arrival of newcomers such as Jim Kaat (reaped 43 and 52 votes from 2005) and Luis Tiant (20 and 15 votes).

                Total votes cast: 433, 458, 488
                Ballots cast: 81, 80, 82
                Average votes cast: 5.35, 5.72, 5.95
                Last edited by Paul Wendt; 08-25-2008, 06:50 PM. Reason: stats

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'd support Dahlen, Gordon, Carl Mays, and Mickey Vernon.

                  I'd induct all of these guys (well, maybe not Reynolds, but it wouldn't bug me)...but these are the four guys who are near the top of their positions in terms of eligible but uninducted.

                  I think the only eligible uninducted shortstop that Dahlen isn't definitely better than is Alan Trammell...maybe. Barry Larkin, eligible shortly, is about as good as Trammell. It's a little hard to compare Dahlen to those two, as the game has changed so dramatically, but Dahlen was the best NL shortstop of the turn of the century (excepting Wagner, who's in a different category)...there's no reason for him not to be in.

                  No caveats with Gordon...the only second basemen better than him and still waiting haven't been retired 5 years. Superlative fielder, great slugger, one of the very best players of the 1940's. Maybe Lou Whitaker on his best day is better, but Whitaker never had that real high peak that Gordon did.

                  Mays is the best RHP not in the Hall other than Blyleven and maybe Tiant. He's have been in long ago if it weren't for the Ray Chapman beaning, and there's no reason to believe that was anything other than a tragic accident.

                  Vernon is the one that I know will irk some. The guy was more solid than spectacular over a long career, but he finished his career with 2500 hits playing in a pitchers' park and missing his age 26 and 27 seasons to WWII. He has more Gray Ink than the average HOFer, plus two batting titles and three doubles titles. He was a superlative fielder. The guy really belongs. Plus, just for the record, he's still alive, aged 90.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                    I'd support Dahlen, Gordon, Carl Mays, and Mickey Vernon.

                    I'd induct all of these guys (well, maybe not Reynolds, but it wouldn't bug me)...but these are the four guys who are near the top of their positions in terms of eligible but uninducted.

                    I think the only eligible uninducted shortstop that Dahlen isn't definitely better than is Alan Trammell...maybe. Barry Larkin, eligible shortly, is about as good as Trammell. It's a little hard to compare Dahlen to those two, as the game has changed so dramatically, but Dahlen was the best NL shortstop of the turn of the century (excepting Wagner, who's in a different category)...there's no reason for him not to be in.

                    No caveats with Gordon...the only second basemen better than him and still waiting haven't been retired 5 years. Superlative fielder, great slugger, one of the very best players of the 1940's. Maybe Lou Whitaker on his best day is better, but Whitaker never had that real high peak that Gordon did.

                    Mays is the best RHP not in the Hall other than Blyleven and maybe Tiant. He's have been in long ago if it weren't for the Ray Chapman beaning, and there's no reason to believe that was anything other than a tragic accident.

                    Vernon is the one that I know will irk some. The guy was more solid than spectacular over a long career, but he finished his career with 2500 hits playing in a pitchers' park and missing his age 26 and 27 seasons to WWII. He has more Gray Ink than the average HOFer, plus two batting titles and three doubles titles. He was a superlative fielder. The guy really belongs. Plus, just for the record, he's still alive, aged 90.

                    Cougar great post, I agree with about 90% of your conclusions here. I wouldn't have a problem with Reynolds either. I've got Concepcion ahead of Trammell, barely, but otherwise, I think you and I are like-minded here. I hope 4 of them get in. That would be rare indeed, as it sounds as if 4 will be the max put in. I'd go Dahlen, Gordon, Mays, and Reynolds.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      henrich, you're ok with Reynolds because he earned a ton of extra ink in the H-factor due to being on six championship teams. Remove those bonuses and I'm sure he'll fall way down in your system.
                      1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                      1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                      1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                      1966 1974 1977 1978


                      1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                      2013 2014


                      1996 2006

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        yep

                        Originally posted by BlueBlood View Post
                        henrich, you're ok with Reynolds because he earned a ton of extra ink in the H-factor due to being on six championship teams. Remove those bonuses and I'm sure he'll fall way down in your system.
                        I feel like the anchorman here, winning is like "a big deal around here" (sic)

                        6x 500 =3000 points. I've got him over 10,000 overall though, so he did have some points elsewhere. Both Mays and Reynolds are at that mark, and being considered in the top 10 guys pre-1943, gives that system a little credibility, no?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Show me all ten candidates minus the WS bonus. I'm certain Reynolds will finish last or maybe ahead of a nineteenth century guy which your system tends to underrate.
                          Last edited by BlueBlood; 08-26-2008, 01:17 AM.
                          1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                          1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                          1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                          1966 1974 1977 1978


                          1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                          2013 2014


                          1996 2006

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That takes the fun out of it, but I'll comply

                            Originally posted by BlueBlood View Post
                            Show me all ten candidates minus the WS bonus. I'm certainly Reynolds would finish last or maybe ahead of a nineteenth century guy which your system tends to underrate.

                            Original numbers in order of H-Factor regardless of position:

                            1. Allie Reynolds 11,828
                            2. Joe Gordon 10,265
                            3. Carl Mays 10,097
                            4. Bucky Walters 10,047
                            5. Sherry Magee 9800
                            6. Bill Dahlen 9794
                            7. Mickey Vernon 9445
                            8. Vern Stephens 8411
                            9. Deacon White 6605 (Best 3B in his era)
                            10. Wes Ferrell 6040 9 out of 10 I can justify, this one is the outlier for me.

                            Taking out championships?
                            1. Allie Reynolds 8,828
                            2. Joe Gordon 7,765
                            3. Carl Mays 8,097
                            4. Bucky Walters 9,547
                            5. Sherry Magee 9,300
                            6. Bill Dahlen 9,294
                            7. Mickey Vernon 8,925
                            8. Vern Stephens 8,411
                            9. Deacon White 6,605
                            10. Wes Ferrell 6,040

                            New shuffle, would then be
                            1. Walters 9547
                            2. Magee 9300
                            3. Dahlen 9294
                            4. Vernon 8925
                            5. Reynolds 8828
                            6. Stephens 8411
                            7. Mays 8097
                            8. Gordon 7765
                            9. White 6605
                            10. Ferrell 6040

                            Did you like this layout better? I think it loses a vital component this way. The first one you can see that 10,000 is clearly a good mark for greatness or in leading in one's era at a respective position (needed for deficiencies covered in era 1 previously)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Reynolds is the only one I wouldn't vote for. Outstanding ballot.
                              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                              Comment

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