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The Hall of Mistakes, Election #25

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  • The Hall of Mistakes, Election #25

    The Hall of Fame is never going to identify its mistakes, so it’s up to us. This is the 25th in a series of polls to set up a new wing in the Coop. I've picked up the pace a bit; we'll elect two players for each of the last two elections, to get us up to 34 players.

    We want to isolate the players that don’t reach the HOF’s minimum standards, so that they will not be used as examples for arguing that a similar player deserves enshrinement. We’ll elect one mistake at a time. These are our first 30 dishonorees, by position:

    C - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
    1B - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
    2B - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski
    3B - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
    SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
    LF - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
    CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
    RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler
    P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper

    Over on the History forum they’re running polls using the MVP voting format, voting for 10 guys in rank order, with points assigned 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let’s use that basic method, but since the differences between candidates are less now than in early rounds, I'll no longer give bonus points for getting a top vote. Your worst hall of fame player will be voted #1, the next worst #2, down to your 10th worst. The player with the most total points at the end of the poll (probably about a week) will hereafter be designated as a Mistake. We will follow with another thread to identify the next worst player, and so on. We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 225 players (34 guys).

    Players classified by the HOF as Pioneers/Managers/Executives/Umpires (e.g., Candy Cummings) are not eligible for this election. However, be aware that the 29 Negro league players are included - they are fair game for labeling as Mistakes.

    We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, Tommy McCarthy is probably the worst player in the Hall stat-wise. However, he was elected as much for being an innovator, a pioneer and a winning player as he was for his production as a player.

    Or Hughie Jennings. He has one of the shortest playing careers in the Hall. However, he was also a successful manager in addition to being the central player on a team often cited as the best of the 19th century. Frank Chance has a similar profile.

    So, voters will have to decide how much weight to give non-playing accomplishments. It should be interesting, as voters will need to consider more than just stats.

    A couple threads in this forum suggest candidates for voting out. (Underlined players are still active candidates.) The “Upper/Lower Hall of Fame Vote” thread has my list of who I think are the worst 76 players in the Hall. The poll under “Veterans Committee Mistakes” has the 26 worst players being Haines, T.Jackson, Lindstrom, Chesbro, Combs, Marquard, L. Waner, R. Ferrell, Hafey, Youngs, Hooper, G.Kelly, Tinker, Bottomley, Evers, Bancroft, Schoendienst, Rizzuto, Schalk, Lazzeri, Kell, Manush, Bender, Hoyt, Beckley and H. Wilson. (That poll did not include McCarthy, Willis or Chance.) There is also some good discussion from last spring in the thread “Weak HOFers”. Finally, in the thread "5 Tier HOF (v. 2) - The Admirable & Borderline" from 2003, the bottom 25 were identified (alphabetically) as Bancroft, Bottomley, Bresnahan, Chance, Chesbro, Combs, Evers, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Hoyt, T.Jackson, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Maranville, Marquard, Mazeroski, McCarthy, Pennock, Rizzuto, Schalk, Schoendienst, Tinker, L.Waner, and Youngs.

    With Lindstrom, Kelly, McCarthy, Marquard, Haines, Waner, T. Jackson, Ferrell, Youngs, Bender, Hafey, Pennock, Combs, Chesbro, Hoyt, Tinker, Schalk, Johnson, Bottomley, Schoendienst, Kell, Willis, Hooper, Manush, Bancroft, Evers, Rizzuto, Mazeroski, Cooper and Cuyler no longer eligible, here's my list of the next ten to vote out:

    1.Day L
    2.Hunter
    3.Lazzeri
    4.Wilson H
    5.Rice S
    6.Gomez
    7.Lombardi
    8.Maranville
    9.Chance
    10.Smith H
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    1) Sam Rice
    2) leon day
    3) Bruce Sutter
    4) Tony Perez
    5) Ernie Lombardi
    6) Tony Lazzeri]
    7) Jim Hunter
    8) Rollie Fingers
    9) Hilton Smith
    10) Jake Beckley

    Comment


    • #3
      1. Fingers
      2. Perez, Tony
      3. Bresnahan
      4. Rixey
      5. Hunter
      6. Wilson, H.
      7. Rice, S.
      8. Lombardi
      9. Gomez
      10. Lazzeri
      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

      Comment


      • #4
        The consensus ballot looks like this:

        1.Hunter
        2.Fingers
        3.Rixey
        4.Rice S
        5.Day
        6.Perez
        7.Wilson H
        8.Lombardi
        9.Lazzeri
        10.Sutter

        I'll have results up tomorrow. Hopefully we'll see another ballot or two float in before then.
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

        Comment


        • #5
          I understand that this isn't necessarily the only criteria for the Hall of Fame, but you guys do understand that, going solely by age 30 and up, Sam Rice is one of the top 5 players of all time, right?
          "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

          Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

          Comment


          • #6
            --No I don't understand that at all. Rice hit for good, but not great, average. He didn't walk, hit for power or play a key defensive position. Basically Rice was a poor man's Ichrio. I know you see that as a good thing, but it isn't a top 105 all time kind of player.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by leecemark
              --No I don't understand that at all. Rice hit for good, but not great, average. He didn't walk, hit for power or play a key defensive position. Basically Rice was a poor man's Ichrio. I know you see that as a good thing, but it isn't a top 105 all time kind of player.
              All players, after age 29:

              R:
              1. Pete Rose
              2. Cap Anson
              3. Sam Rice

              H:
              1. Pete Rose
              2. Sam Rice

              TB:
              1. Pete Rose
              2. Hank Aaron
              3. Stan Musial
              4. Willie Mays
              5. Sam Rice

              2B:
              1. Pete Rose
              2. Tris Speaker
              3. Sam Rice

              3B:
              1. Honus Wagner
              2. Sam Rice

              RC:
              1. Babe Ruth
              2. Barry Bonds
              3. Stan Musial
              4. Pete Rose
              5. Hank Aaron
              6. Willie Mays
              7. Cap Anson
              8. Ted Williams
              9. Ty Cobb
              10. Sam Rice

              ToB:
              1. Pete Rose
              2. Cap Anson
              3. Sam Rice

              And he wasn't like Pete Rose, desperately trying to cling on to chase some record. The lowest Sam's BA ever got in his career was .293.
              "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

              Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

              Comment


              • #8
                --An empty .293 in the 20s and 30s is pretty weak for a corner OFer. Maybe not quite as weak as the 40+ Rose at 1B, but nothing I'd want on my team either.

                Comment


                • #9
                  No question that Rice had longevity, which usually indicates greatness. Not always, of course. It enabled him to compile some nice career totals, aided by the high offense of the AL in his time.

                  The mistakes we're dealing with now aren't horrible, but they have some outstanding weakness which puts them under the HOF line. He never really had a great season and his offensive contribution was almost entirely based on his BA.
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Results, Election #25

                    Condolences to Catfish Hunter and Sam Rice, who become the 31st and 32nd members of the Hall of Mistakes. Hunter becomes the second BBWAA selection to join our roster of mistakes, along with Herb Pennock. They join Fred Lindstrom, George Kelly, Tommy McCarthy, Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Lloyd Waner, Travis Jackson, Rick Ferrell, Ross Youngs, Chief Bender, Chick Hafey, Herb Pennock, Earle Combs, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Joe Tinker, Ray Schalk, Judy Johnson, Red Schoendienst, Jim Bottomley, George Kell, Vic Willis, Harry Hooper, Heinie Manush, Dave Bancroft, Johnny Evers, Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Andy Cooper and Kiki Cuyler. A wide open election looms for next time, with Leon Day looking like the front-runner.

                    Here are the full results for the 25th election:
                    Code:
                    Pts	1st	Bal	Top 10 Players
                    29	1	4	Catfish Hunter
                    27	1	4	Sam Rice
                    25	1	3	Leon Day
                    22	1	3	Rollie Fingers
                    21	0	3	Tony Perez
                    16	0	4	Tony Lazzeri
                    16	0	4	Ernie Lombardi
                    16	0	3	Hack Wilson
                    15	0	2	Eppa Rixey
                    9	0	2	Bruce Sutter
                    			the rest
                    8	0	1	Bresnahan
                    7	0	2	Gomez
                    3	0	2	Smith H
                    3	0	1	Maranville
                    2	0	1	Chance
                    1	0	1	Beckley
                    The Hall of Mistakes will reach its capacity with one more election, just in time for a new baseball season. Then, stay tuned for the Hall of Corrections.
                    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leecemark
                      --An empty .293 in the 20s and 30s is pretty weak for a corner OFer. Maybe not quite as weak as the 40+ Rose at 1B, but nothing I'd want on my team either.
                      And, like I said, .293 was the lowest he ever hit (at age 44). From ages 40-42, he hit .349 (54 points above average), .310 (22), and .323 (39). For a guy in his 40's, that's not shabby at all.
                      "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                      Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

                      Comment

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