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Is Ron Guidry a HOF ?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by NOMAR22
    The Milwaukee brewers are not known as the best team in Baseball. The new York Yankees are. When you pitch for a historic franchise ,then your stats mean alot more if you pitched for a little known teams like the Brewers,
    Mariners,Rockies,Astros,etc.
    This will be my only post on this topic...Billy Pierce is a more deserving HOFer than Guidry. There is no sense arguing with a person who has no idea what logic, win shares, historical context, or historical relativity means. He lives in a bizarre Yankee-dominated fantasy world where reason and common sense mean nothing. Every other post could be classified as the "craziest thing I have heard today" (see quote above). Bottom line...Guidry was good and borderline great for a few seasons, but his career was too short to be an immediate HOFer...have a nice day.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Oosches
      This will be my only post on this topic...Billy Pierce is a more deserving HOFer than Guidry. There is no sense arguing with a person who has no idea what logic, win shares, historical context, or historical relativity means. He lives in a bizarre Yankee-dominated fantasy world where reason and common sense mean nothing. Every other post could be classified as the "craziest thing I have heard today" (see quote above). Bottom line...Guidry was good and borderline great for a few seasons, but his career was too short to be an immediate HOFer...have a nice day.

      Yankee hater! Typical Red Sox fan.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Old Mike
        Actually the perfect comparison seems to be Lefty Gomez. I am not advocating for or against either pitcher but I see no stronger case for the 1930s Yankees hurler than the 70s-80s one.
        Yes! You are one of the few bright people on this topic.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by 538280
          Win Shares aren't meant to help a player in salary arbitration or to get a free agent contract, or not even necessarily to be used in HOF debates. They could be used for that, but they are not created for that. Their goal is to try as accurately as possible to boil a players contributions into a single number. They are not perfect, certainly, but they give a good idea of how good a player is.

          If you're going to criticize Win Shares, talk about how you don't think it's legitimate to charge errors by the second basemen, third basemen and shortstops against the first baseman. Talk about how you think there's a flaw in how he divides between pitcing and fielding. Talk about how you don't like the runs created formula used in it. You have done nothing to say why you don't think Win Shares are accurate in telling how good a player is.

          Reggie Jackson is my favorite player. I used to have an avatar of him before I recently switched to Jimmy Wynn. Wynn is one of my favorites, and I strongly advocate him for the HOF, but Reggie is my favorite player. His Win Shares are actually very good. They have put to rest many complaints about his low batting average and shown that he truly was a great player, one of the greatest of all time. I rank Reggie among the top 30 players of all time, and think he is underrated. Win Shares have confirmed what I believed to be true. You speak about Reggie without even checking to see that Win Shares indeed are very favorable to him. You still have shown no knowledge of the system.
          Most people who know about baseball do not need to see Reggie Jackson's win share to see that he was one of the all time greats. Thats why he was MR. October. Reggie Jackson's Average was great but he put his teams on his back and carried them to Division Tittles,World series tittles.

          I would rank Reggie Jackson ahead of Mark Mc Gwire,Sammy Sosa,Mike Schmidt,Harmon Killebrew, Ernie Banks, Willie Mc Covey,Ken Griffey Jr, etc.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by NOMAR22
            Most people who know about baseball do not need to see Reggie Jackson's win share to see that he was one of the all time greats. Thats why he was MR. October. Reggie Jackson's Average was great but he put his teams on his back and carried them to Division Tittles,World series tittles.
            I agree. To someone who sees Jackson's average as "great," taking a look at win shares probably will not be helpful.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by NOMAR22
              Yes! You are one of the few bright people on this topic.
              Agreed. How dare those of us look at these things objectively.
              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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              • #67
                Originally posted by NOMAR22
                Yankee hater! Typical Red Sox fan.
                And this from a guy named NOMAR22
                Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by NOMAR22
                  Most people who know about baseball do not need to see Reggie Jackson's win share to see that he was one of the all time greats. Thats why he was MR. October. Reggie Jackson's Average was great but he put his teams on his back and carried them to Division Tittles,World series tittles.

                  I would rank Reggie Jackson ahead of Mark Mc Gwire,Sammy Sosa,Mike Schmidt,Harmon Killebrew, Ernie Banks, Willie Mc Covey,Ken Griffey Jr, etc.
                  I'm glad you like Reggie Jackson. That seems to be a minority opinion around here.

                  But, you really need to learn to look at things objectively. Ron Guidry has an extremely short career, about 2300 innings. I believe that would be the third lowest IP total among any HOF starting pitcher. The only ones lower are Sandy Koufax and Dizzy Dean. So, presumably one has to be as dominant in that amount of innings as Koufax and Dean were to be a HOF level pitcher.

                  What I"m basically saying is that you need to have a Koufax-esque peak to be a HOFer with that low an IP total.

                  A pretty good way to measure dominance of the league is by using the black ink test. It gives a summary of the player's league leading performance. 'Guidry has 29 black ink, Dean has 52, and Koufax has 78. He had one great year, but overall wasn't even near the dominance of Koufax and Dean.

                  Another way to do this is to compare their career ERA with the league ERA. That is done with ERA+, which is simply the league ERA divided by the player ERA. Dean has a 130 ERA+, which means his ERA was 30% better than the league ERA. Koufax is at 131, Guidry is at 120.

                  These are NOT crazy out of the world measures that no one pays any attention to. These are regular, standard comparison measures used everyday here on BBF and by baseball fans all over. I would venture to guess they are used by at least some HOF voters.
                  Last edited by 538280; 03-24-2006, 01:00 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Reggie Jackson over Schmidt?

                    Have fun with that one.

                    Hey would you like to join a $1,000 a man fantasy league with me?
                    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by NOMAR22
                      Win share is not important to me. How many players are awarded big contracts based on win share? Only people on this board put alot importance on this worthless stat.
                      A flat simple question to you? Do you know what Win Shares are and how they are reached?

                      Yankees Fan Since 1957

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by yanks0714
                        A flat simple question to you? Do you know what Win Shares are and how they are reached?

                        Yeah i saw the article, i didn't impress me at all.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by digglahhh
                          Reggie Jackson over Schmidt?

                          Have fun with that one.

                          Hey would you like to join a $1,000 a man fantasy league with me?

                          How many league tiitles did Mike Schmidt win? Compare it to Reggie Jackson he won 6, and 5 World series tiitles. Reggie Jackson was a winner you can't really say that about Mike Schmidt only 1 world series title and that was against the KC Royals! ha!

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by NOMAR22
                            How many league tiitles did Mike Schmidt win? Compare it to Reggie Jackson he won 6, and 5 World series tiitles. Reggie Jackson was a winner you can't really say that about Mike Schmidt only 1 world series title and that was against the KC Royals! ha!
                            Now we know that individuals win all by themselves without any team
                            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by NOMAR22
                              Yeah i saw the article, i didn't impress me at all.
                              Why didn't it impress you? Once again, you show no understanding of Win Shares, or what they reall are. What exactly about Win Shares makes them meaningless to you? You still are yet to explain that to us.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by NOMAR22
                                How many league tiitles did Mike Schmidt win? Compare it to Reggie Jackson he won 6, and 5 World series tiitles. Reggie Jackson was a winner you can't really say that about Mike Schmidt only 1 world series title and that was against the KC Royals! ha!
                                The Kansas City Royals were a power house in the 1970's and 80's. You cant say that beating the Royals were an easy to beat team just because they have stuggled in the 90's and 2000's. They had a beater record than the Phillies in 1980. Also Reggie Jackson was not the only one behind that team pushing them (although he was a big factor) A team wins not just a single person.
                                go sox.

                                Pigskin-Fever

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