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Is Ron Guidry a HOF ?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by NOMAR22
    what is Mike Schmidt's nickname?
    I nominate "Mr. 1974-1987"
    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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    • #92
      Originally posted by digglahhh
      I nominate "Mr. 1974-1987"
      How about "Mr. Can Field a Lick"?
      Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
      Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
      Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
      Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
      Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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      • #93
        Originally posted by dgarza
        Which makes the 1966-2000 statement true. There was no better Brewer pitcher in than Teddy in 1966 because there were no Brewer pitchers in 1966.
        It also makes the statement true if it read "1642-2000."
        The statement from 1642-2000 is completely false because Ned Garvin would be the best brewers pitcher in 1901. Which means that Garvin was the best Brewers pitcher from 1901-1985/86, then Higuera the best Brewers pitcher from 1985/86-now, since technically Sheets hasn't passed Higuera now.
        AL East Champions: 1981 1982
        AL Pennant: 1982
        NL Central Champions: 2011
        NL Wild Card: 2008

        "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Dudecar00
          The statement from 1642-2000 is completely false because Ned Garvin would be the best brewers pitcher in 1901. Which means that Garvin was the best Brewers pitcher from 1901-1985/86, then Higuera the best Brewers pitcher from 1985/86-now, since technically Sheets hasn't passed Higuera now.
          This still doesn't make my statement completely false. Garvin was the best Brewer pitcher from 1642-1969. Mary Pattin "surpassed" him in 1970. During the years 1642-2000, no Brewer pitcher was better than Higuera.

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          • #95
            Statistical comparisons include Sandy Koufax and Lefty Gomez. He had good grey ink and Hall of Fame monitor has him as a "likely" Hall of Famer. He was in the top 10 in Cy Young Award voting six times in 14 seasons and was in the top ten in wins and strikeouts seven times (he twice led the league in wins).

            I believe Guidry should get in the Hall one day.

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            • #96
              I can't go for Guidry. Even if we exclude the top seven from the 1970's and 1980's who are in the Hall (Palmer, Seaver, G. Perry, P. Niekro, Jenkins, Carlton and Ryan), he's got a lot of competition from that time, and he doesn't stack up particularly well. He's only a 4 time all star, and while he's got real plusses in being 15th in Cy Young Award shares and 52nd in Black ink, he's also 109th in Gray ink and 78th in HOF standards. Call that a mixed bag. But in win shares, he's got 174 career, 72 in his top 3 seasons, and 96 in his best five consecutive seasons. Let's compare him to the two oft-criticized choices from that era (Don Sutton and Catfish Hunter), some other candidates who have drawn serious support (Blyleven, Tiant, Stieb and Jack Morris) and some fairly similar contemporaries (Gooden, Viola, Lolich, Tanana, Messersmith and Reuschel). I limited the comparison to starters so we're talking apples to apples here:

              Code:
              [COLOR="Red"]Guidry……..	174	72	96[/COLOR]
              Sutton………	319	67	98
              Hunter……….	206	80	117
              Blyleven…….	339	75	112
              Tiant………..	256	79	108
              Stieb………..	210	74	113
              Morris……….	225	60	94
              Gooden……..	187	68	95
              Tanana………	241	69	98
              Viola………..	187	69	100
              Blue…………	202	77	96
              Messersmith	169	75	102
              Lolich……….	224	75	111
              Reuschel……	240	66	95
              Sutton is quite reasonable competition at his peak, and he destroys him on the career level. Hunter beats him across the board, as do Tiant, Stieb, Lolich, and Blue. Many of the others have significant edges in the career and are darned close in peak. I just don't think Guidry had enough of a career to merit the Hall of Fame, as too many of his contemporaries did as well or better overall.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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              • #97
                Sure Guidry could go in, but ditto Cuellar, McNally and ohhhhyh Doyle Alexander. We will likely see Doyle inducted as the others listed.

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                • #98
                  Far from benefitting from the "great Yankee team", Guidry's emergence was a key reason the Yankees won back-to-back World Championships. His career was short, and I go back and forth on him, but his best 10 years were the guts of a HOF career by any measure.

                  One thing I will say unequivically: Guidry had a much higher peak value than Billy Pierce. Pierce is a guy that I don't see why he should get a lot of HOF love when folks who saw him while active didn't think he was HOF hot. I won't go over the deep end if Pierce makes it, but if Pierce makes it, then Jack Morris and Eppa Rixey are owed apologies. I'll throw Jim Kaat and Tommy John in that mix as well.
                  "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                  NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                    Far from benefitting from the "great Yankee team", Guidry's emergence was a key reason the Yankees won back-to-back World Championships. His career was short, and I go back and forth on him, but his best 10 years were the guts of a HOF career by any measure.

                    One thing I will say unequivically: Guidry had a much higher peak value than Billy Pierce. Pierce is a guy that I don't see why he should get a lot of HOF love when folks who saw him while active didn't think he was HOF hot. I won't go over the deep end if Pierce makes it, but if Pierce makes it, then Jack Morris and Eppa Rixey are owed apologies. I'll throw Jim Kaat and Tommy John in that mix as well.
                    Fuzzy, as I recall, at his peak Pierce was the consensus best AL pitcher. Maybe this was just Yankee-haters' way of sniping at Ford and the Yankee staff generally, but that was the sense I had.

                    At that time recent "Hall of Fame hot" choices were Feller, Vance, Bender, Lyons (oops) and Dean. The VC wasn't doing much, and the BBWAA wasn't either. Except for Lyons, these guys were legends, so Pierce really wasn't in that context.

                    Guidry-Dean is an interesting comp.
                    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                    • I can't believe I actually told someone who is better versed in baseball history than myself about a mere trifle that was only used to make a point.

                      Guidry's case is based upon comparison to the lesser lites of HOF pitchers. He was a fine pitcher for a few years but doesn't stack up against qualified hurlers with longer careers. I can't endorse his election.
                      Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                      Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                      Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                      Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                      Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                      • Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                        Fuzzy, as I recall, at his peak Pierce was the consensus best AL pitcher. Maybe this was just Yankee-haters' way of sniping at Ford and the Yankee staff generally, but that was the sense I had.

                        At that time recent "Hall of Fame hot" choices were Feller, Vance, Bender, Lyons (oops) and Dean. The VC wasn't doing much, and the BBWAA wasn't either. Except for Lyons, these guys were legends, so Pierce really wasn't in that context.

                        Guidry-Dean is an interesting comp.
                        I'd take Lyons over Bender easily. Over Dean too.
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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                        • Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                          I'd take Lyons over Bender easily. Over Dean too.
                          So would I, but Bender and Dean were the stuff of legends, played on great teams, one a Carlisle Indian from the early AL days, one, well, Dizzy Dean. I'd take Pierce over both, too, but I wouldn't expect the writers of Pierce's time to think of him in a HOF context.
                          Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                          • The best pitcher in the AL between Palmer and Clemens, one utterly legendary season, and a solid decade-long stretch of top-shelf pitching. Arguably the best player, and/or the most valuable one, on the early Steinbrenner era Yankees. The relative brevity of his career, owning mainly to a late start*, prevents him from being upper half of HOF pitchers, but I judge him to be comfortably over the HOF line.

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                            • *I've never heard a compelling explanation offered as to why Guidry reached the major leagues so late. Does anyone know?

                              He pitched at a top level (sub 3.00 ERAs) almost immediately upon getting regular turns in the rotation. Was he just unready before that point and just experience a sudden epiphany that let him at last break through? Was he blocked? Did he have early injury trouble?

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                              • Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                                The best pitcher in the AL between Palmer and Clemens,
                                Not completely sold on this point. I don't think any 1 AL pitcher stood out during this period overall.
                                Guidry
                                Blyleven (despite his few Pirate years)
                                Dave Stieb

                                (perhaps even Eckersley and Tanana)

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