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Is Ron Guidry a HOF ?

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  • Originally posted by Cougar View Post
    *I've never heard a compelling explanation offered as to why Guidry reached the major leagues so late. Does anyone know?

    He pitched at a top level (sub 3.00 ERAs) almost immediately upon getting regular turns in the rotation. Was he just unready before that point and just experience a sudden epiphany that let him at last break through? Was he blocked? Did he have early injury trouble?
    Were the Yankees trying to turn him into a closer?

    If you look at his Minor League career, he started off as a starter in his early 20s, but then became a reliever and was doing VERY well...

    Code:
                                                                                                
    Year   Age             Tm Lev W L W-L%  ERA  G GS SV    IP SO  WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
    1971    20    JohnsonCity  Rk 2 2 .500 2.11  7  7  0  47.0 61 1.298 6.5  0.2  5.2 11.7  2.26
    1972    21 FortLauderdale   A 2 4 .333 3.82 15 13  0  66.0 61 1.561 7.2  0.3  6.8  8.3  1.22
    1973    22        Kinston   A 7 6 .538 3.21 20 16  1 101.0 97 1.535 7.6  0.4  6.2  8.6  1.39
    1974    23      WestHaven  AA 2 4 .333 5.26 37  8  3  77.0 79 1.727 9.4  0.6  6.2  9.2  1.49
    1975    24       Syracuse AAA 6 5 .545 2.90 42  0 14  62.0 76 1.339 6.7  0.0  5.4 11.0  2.05
    1976    25       Syracuse AAA 5 1 .833 0.68 22  0  9  40.0 50 0.725 3.6  0.0  2.9 11.2  3.85

    Comment


    • Originally posted by dgarza View Post
      Not completely sold on this point. I don't think any 1 AL pitcher stood out during this period overall.
      Guidry
      Blyleven (despite his few Pirate years)
      Dave Stieb

      (perhaps even Eckersley and Tanana)
      It's fair to note that Guidry peaked early in that period; I'd suggest that he was certainly the best 1977-1979, and perhaps into 1980-1981; after that, Guidry's performance was more up-and-down. If you like Stieb or Bert better after that point, ok.

      I think when you consider the whole body of work 1977-1985, though, Guidry's #1. No one else had a peak like '78, to be sure.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by dgarza View Post
        Were the Yankees trying to turn him into a closer?

        If you look at his Minor League career, he started off as a starter in his early 20s, but then became a reliever and was doing VERY well...

        Code:
                                                                                                    
        Year   Age             Tm Lev W L W-L%  ERA  G GS SV    IP SO  WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
        1971    20    JohnsonCity  Rk 2 2 .500 2.11  7  7  0  47.0 61 1.298 6.5  0.2  5.2 11.7  2.26
        1972    21 FortLauderdale   A 2 4 .333 3.82 15 13  0  66.0 61 1.561 7.2  0.3  6.8  8.3  1.22
        1973    22        Kinston   A 7 6 .538 3.21 20 16  1 101.0 97 1.535 7.6  0.4  6.2  8.6  1.39
        1974    23      WestHaven  AA 2 4 .333 5.26 37  8  3  77.0 79 1.727 9.4  0.6  6.2  9.2  1.49
        1975    24       Syracuse AAA 6 5 .545 2.90 42  0 14  62.0 76 1.339 6.7  0.0  5.4 11.0  2.05
        1976    25       Syracuse AAA 5 1 .833 0.68 22  0  9  40.0 50 0.725 3.6  0.0  2.9 11.2  3.85
        Maybe, although grooming a lefty closer when you've got Sparky Lyle at his peak in the bigs seems indulgent.

        Then again, the Yankees of that era didn't always do things that made sense...in particular, Boss Steinbrenner terribly undervalued prospects in the farm system, preferring established veterans he could trade for or sign as free agents. The retardation of Guidry's development could be a consequence of that.

        Comment


        • I was going to throw out that Guidry got his control under control as a hazily remembered reason. The chart shows a huge drop in BB/9 in 1976. However I have no memory of how he came to be a starter being a reliever in AAA and mostly one in AA.

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          • I would vote for him if I was a Hall of Fame voter.

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            • Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
              However I have no memory of how he came to be a starter being a reliever in AAA and mostly one in AA.
              I was reading that the Yankees were hurting for starters late April of 1977 (not sure why, maybe Hunter was hurt or something up with Gullett???). So they dipped into their bullpen, used Guidry, and he was on fire his first 3 starts, giving up no runs in his first start. The Yankees were impressed and the rest is history.

              Comment


              • Dean, Joss, Koufax and Gomez are the HOF starters with around the same number of innings as Guidry, all of them were quite a bit better, and all of them also had their careers curtailed by illness or injury.

                Among those outside with < 3000 innings pitched who did measurably better are Saberhagen, Shocker, Cone, Stieb, Trout. . . .
                Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                  So would I, but Bender and Dean were the stuff of legends, played on great teams, one a Carlisle Indian from the early AL days, one, well, Dizzy Dean. I'd take Pierce over both, too, but I wouldn't expect the writers of Pierce's time to think of him in a HOF context.
                  The "oops" comment made me think that you thought he was a mistake. I know why the writers do the crazy things they do. Something was lost on me in the context there.
                  1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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                  • Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                    The "oops" comment made me think that you thought he was a mistake. I know why the writers do the crazy things they do. Something was lost on me in the context there.
                    A mistake only in the sense that his worth wasn't legendary but actual.

                    Some of those guys were unbelievable. They quite literally thought that Mays, Mantle, and Aaron would be minor stars, all-star game bench warmers, because they never hit .370 like Terry, Simmons, and Heilmann, and they struck out all the time. That's one reason why I get a little huffy when someone rhapsodizes about Jim Bottomley's RBI totals.
                    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                      A mistake only in the sense that his worth wasn't legendary but actual.

                      Some of those guys were unbelievable. They quite literally thought that Mays, Mantle, and Aaron would be minor stars, all-star game bench warmers, because they never hit .370 like Terry, Simmons, and Heilmann, and they struck out all the time. That's one reason why I get a little huffy when someone rhapsodizes about Jim Bottomley's RBI totals.
                      Thanks and understood.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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