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Is Ron Guidry a HOF ?

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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    A mistake only in the sense that his worth wasn't legendary but actual.

    Some of those guys were unbelievable. They quite literally thought that Mays, Mantle, and Aaron would be minor stars, all-star game bench warmers, because they never hit .370 like Terry, Simmons, and Heilmann, and they struck out all the time. That's one reason why I get a little huffy when someone rhapsodizes about Jim Bottomley's RBI totals.
    Thanks and understood.

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  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
    The "oops" comment made me think that you thought he was a mistake. I know why the writers do the crazy things they do. Something was lost on me in the context there.
    A mistake only in the sense that his worth wasn't legendary but actual.

    Some of those guys were unbelievable. They quite literally thought that Mays, Mantle, and Aaron would be minor stars, all-star game bench warmers, because they never hit .370 like Terry, Simmons, and Heilmann, and they struck out all the time. That's one reason why I get a little huffy when someone rhapsodizes about Jim Bottomley's RBI totals.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    So would I, but Bender and Dean were the stuff of legends, played on great teams, one a Carlisle Indian from the early AL days, one, well, Dizzy Dean. I'd take Pierce over both, too, but I wouldn't expect the writers of Pierce's time to think of him in a HOF context.
    The "oops" comment made me think that you thought he was a mistake. I know why the writers do the crazy things they do. Something was lost on me in the context there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Dean, Joss, Koufax and Gomez are the HOF starters with around the same number of innings as Guidry, all of them were quite a bit better, and all of them also had their careers curtailed by illness or injury.

    Among those outside with < 3000 innings pitched who did measurably better are Saberhagen, Shocker, Cone, Stieb, Trout. . . .

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    However I have no memory of how he came to be a starter being a reliever in AAA and mostly one in AA.
    I was reading that the Yankees were hurting for starters late April of 1977 (not sure why, maybe Hunter was hurt or something up with Gullett???). So they dipped into their bullpen, used Guidry, and he was on fire his first 3 starts, giving up no runs in his first start. The Yankees were impressed and the rest is history.

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  • Richard Stark
    replied
    I would vote for him if I was a Hall of Fame voter.

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  • PVNICK
    replied
    I was going to throw out that Guidry got his control under control as a hazily remembered reason. The chart shows a huge drop in BB/9 in 1976. However I have no memory of how he came to be a starter being a reliever in AAA and mostly one in AA.

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  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    Were the Yankees trying to turn him into a closer?

    If you look at his Minor League career, he started off as a starter in his early 20s, but then became a reliever and was doing VERY well...

    Code:
                                                                                                
    Year   Age             Tm Lev W L W-L%  ERA  G GS SV    IP SO  WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
    1971    20    JohnsonCity  Rk 2 2 .500 2.11  7  7  0  47.0 61 1.298 6.5  0.2  5.2 11.7  2.26
    1972    21 FortLauderdale   A 2 4 .333 3.82 15 13  0  66.0 61 1.561 7.2  0.3  6.8  8.3  1.22
    1973    22        Kinston   A 7 6 .538 3.21 20 16  1 101.0 97 1.535 7.6  0.4  6.2  8.6  1.39
    1974    23      WestHaven  AA 2 4 .333 5.26 37  8  3  77.0 79 1.727 9.4  0.6  6.2  9.2  1.49
    1975    24       Syracuse AAA 6 5 .545 2.90 42  0 14  62.0 76 1.339 6.7  0.0  5.4 11.0  2.05
    1976    25       Syracuse AAA 5 1 .833 0.68 22  0  9  40.0 50 0.725 3.6  0.0  2.9 11.2  3.85
    Maybe, although grooming a lefty closer when you've got Sparky Lyle at his peak in the bigs seems indulgent.

    Then again, the Yankees of that era didn't always do things that made sense...in particular, Boss Steinbrenner terribly undervalued prospects in the farm system, preferring established veterans he could trade for or sign as free agents. The retardation of Guidry's development could be a consequence of that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    Not completely sold on this point. I don't think any 1 AL pitcher stood out during this period overall.
    Guidry
    Blyleven (despite his few Pirate years)
    Dave Stieb

    (perhaps even Eckersley and Tanana)
    It's fair to note that Guidry peaked early in that period; I'd suggest that he was certainly the best 1977-1979, and perhaps into 1980-1981; after that, Guidry's performance was more up-and-down. If you like Stieb or Bert better after that point, ok.

    I think when you consider the whole body of work 1977-1985, though, Guidry's #1. No one else had a peak like '78, to be sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
    *I've never heard a compelling explanation offered as to why Guidry reached the major leagues so late. Does anyone know?

    He pitched at a top level (sub 3.00 ERAs) almost immediately upon getting regular turns in the rotation. Was he just unready before that point and just experience a sudden epiphany that let him at last break through? Was he blocked? Did he have early injury trouble?
    Were the Yankees trying to turn him into a closer?

    If you look at his Minor League career, he started off as a starter in his early 20s, but then became a reliever and was doing VERY well...

    Code:
                                                                                                
    Year   Age             Tm Lev W L W-L%  ERA  G GS SV    IP SO  WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
    1971    20    JohnsonCity  Rk 2 2 .500 2.11  7  7  0  47.0 61 1.298 6.5  0.2  5.2 11.7  2.26
    1972    21 FortLauderdale   A 2 4 .333 3.82 15 13  0  66.0 61 1.561 7.2  0.3  6.8  8.3  1.22
    1973    22        Kinston   A 7 6 .538 3.21 20 16  1 101.0 97 1.535 7.6  0.4  6.2  8.6  1.39
    1974    23      WestHaven  AA 2 4 .333 5.26 37  8  3  77.0 79 1.727 9.4  0.6  6.2  9.2  1.49
    1975    24       Syracuse AAA 6 5 .545 2.90 42  0 14  62.0 76 1.339 6.7  0.0  5.4 11.0  2.05
    1976    25       Syracuse AAA 5 1 .833 0.68 22  0  9  40.0 50 0.725 3.6  0.0  2.9 11.2  3.85

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
    The best pitcher in the AL between Palmer and Clemens,
    Not completely sold on this point. I don't think any 1 AL pitcher stood out during this period overall.
    Guidry
    Blyleven (despite his few Pirate years)
    Dave Stieb

    (perhaps even Eckersley and Tanana)

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    *I've never heard a compelling explanation offered as to why Guidry reached the major leagues so late. Does anyone know?

    He pitched at a top level (sub 3.00 ERAs) almost immediately upon getting regular turns in the rotation. Was he just unready before that point and just experience a sudden epiphany that let him at last break through? Was he blocked? Did he have early injury trouble?

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    The best pitcher in the AL between Palmer and Clemens, one utterly legendary season, and a solid decade-long stretch of top-shelf pitching. Arguably the best player, and/or the most valuable one, on the early Steinbrenner era Yankees. The relative brevity of his career, owning mainly to a late start*, prevents him from being upper half of HOF pitchers, but I judge him to be comfortably over the HOF line.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
    I'd take Lyons over Bender easily. Over Dean too.
    So would I, but Bender and Dean were the stuff of legends, played on great teams, one a Carlisle Indian from the early AL days, one, well, Dizzy Dean. I'd take Pierce over both, too, but I wouldn't expect the writers of Pierce's time to think of him in a HOF context.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    Fuzzy, as I recall, at his peak Pierce was the consensus best AL pitcher. Maybe this was just Yankee-haters' way of sniping at Ford and the Yankee staff generally, but that was the sense I had.

    At that time recent "Hall of Fame hot" choices were Feller, Vance, Bender, Lyons (oops) and Dean. The VC wasn't doing much, and the BBWAA wasn't either. Except for Lyons, these guys were legends, so Pierce really wasn't in that context.

    Guidry-Dean is an interesting comp.
    I'd take Lyons over Bender easily. Over Dean too.

    Leave a comment:

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