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  • Post-1943 VC Ballot Announced!

    Link.

    Dick Allen
    Gil Hodges
    Jim Kaat
    Tony Oliva
    Al Oliver
    Vada Pinson
    Ron Santo
    Luis Tiant
    Joe Torre
    Maury Wills

    Frankly, this is a much worse ballot than the pre-1943 one, IMHO.

    I'd only be willing to vote for Santo, Allen, Torre and possibly Oliva and Tiant.

    I can't believe Minnie Minoso and Ken Boyer were left off this ballot!
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

  • #2
    Originally posted by Classic View Post
    I can't believe Minnie Minoso and Ken Boyer were left off this ballot!
    Yet somehow Maury Wills shows up on there

    I'd much rather see Harvey Kuenn or Mickey Lolich on there. At least they have some kind of an argument.

    I also hoped they'd revisit Dan Quisenberry now that the way the hall looks at relievers has changed, but I guess that's too much wishful thinking.

    Comment


    • #3
      From the link:

      "The 21 candidates considered by the Screening Committee: Allen, Ken Boyer (not even the best 3B from that period), Bert Campaneris (arguably not the best SS from that period), Rocky Colavito (not even the best RF from that period), Mike Cuellar (not even the best P from that period), Steve Garvey, Hodges (not even the second best 1B from that period), Kaat, Ted Kluszewski, Mickey Lolich, Roger Maris, Lee May, Minnie Minoso, Thurman Munson (not even the best C from that period), Oliva, Oliver, Pinson, Santo, Tiant, Torre and Wills.

      Also in December, a 12-member voting committee will consider the candidacies of 10 former Major League players whose careers began in 1942 or earlier: Bill Dahlen, Wes Ferrell (not even the best P from that period), Joe Gordon, Sherry Magee, Carl Mays, Allie Reynolds, Vern Stephens, Mickey Vernon, Bucky Walters and Deacon White."

      Wills but no Minoso
      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post

        "The 21 candidates considered by the Screening Committee: Allen, Ken Boyer (not even the best 3B from that period), Bert Campaneris (arguably not the best SS from that period), Rocky Colavito (not even the best RF from that period), Mike Cuellar (not even the best P from that period), Steve Garvey, Hodges (not even the second best 1B from that period), Kaat, Ted Kluszewski, Mickey Lolich, Roger Maris, Lee May, Minnie Minoso, Thurman Munson (not even the best C from that period), Oliva, Oliver, Pinson, Santo, Tiant, Torre and Wills.
        These are awful explainations.
        "not even the best.." could apply to all these players.
        "not even the best.." could be said about a number of HOFers, including Ferguson Jenkins and Duke Snider.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dgarza View Post
          These are awful explainations.
          "not even the best.." could apply to all these players.
          Which is what I'm saying, more poor choices

          <"not even the best.." could be said about a number of HOFers, including Ferguson Jenkins and Duke Snider.>

          Unless you know a way to change the past ...
          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

          Comment


          • #6
            incumbency and recency, the powers that be

            Here I have added to the listing their ranks in the 2007 election. Note that the Historical Overview Committee has nominated the "incumbents" down to #6 and it has not nominated anyone who is newly eligible.

            17 Dick Allen
            3. Gil Hodges
            2. Jim Kaat
            4. Tony Oliva
            12 Al Oliver
            8. Vada Pinson
            1. Ron Santo
            9t Luis Tiant
            6. Joe Torre
            5. Maury Wills

            Let me account for the other 2007 leaders down to #20.

            pre-1943, no longer eligible
            9t Lefty O'Doul
            12 Mickey Vernon
            15 Cecil Travis
            17 Marty Marion
            19 Joe Gordon

            eligible but passed over
            7. Don Newcombe
            9t Roger Maris
            12 Curt Flood
            15 Minnie Minoso
            20 Ken Boyer

            Originally posted by Classic View Post
            Frankly, this is a much worse ballot than the pre-1943 one, IMHO.

            I can't believe Minnie Minoso and Ken Boyer were left off this ballot!
            Others may relate them to various projects such as the Ultimate Quest here at Baseball-Fever.

            What do the latter ten players have in common? O'Doul & Co. are the five oldest of the twenty, of course. Newcombe & Co. are the next five oldest except Gil Hodges. Everyone with mlb debuts after 1942 is eligible but they have nominated Hodges and nine guys with debuts after 1957 (Pinson 1958). And the 2007 results show the sense in which that makes sense. Who are the living Hall of Famers likely to support?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post

              Unless you know a way to change the past ...
              It doesn't take changing the past to know that Mantle was better than Snider.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                Wills but no Minoso
                Truer emoticons were never caricatured.

                It seems like the HOF is determined to not let Minnie Minoso enjoy his well-deserved enshrinement during his lifetime.

                Appalling!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                  Truer emoticons were never caricatured.

                  It seems like the HOF is determined to not let Minnie Minoso enjoy his well-deserved enshrinement during his lifetime.

                  Appalling!
                  Majorly appalling! I wonder how much of it is because of their last impressions of him as an old man attempting a publicity stunt? Stupid reason, I know but I recall someone writing an article about his attempts to appear in the majors in every decade hurting his HOF chances in the Sporting News in the 1980s and for some of these VC guys, I have to wonder if they liked the 70s and 80s so much they never left given their positions on a lot of baseball issues.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Guys, let's face it. Every time the HoF tries to straighten out the past with these VC committees it just gets worse. It's time to call a halt to the lunacy and accept they are never going to get it right. It's better to let some of the deserving go uninducted than to continue this charade which keeps making mistakes.
                    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Who told you that Bobby Doerr and Robin Roberts would be on the committee if willing and able to serve?
                      >>
                      The 12 members of the voting committee who are scheduled to meet on Dec. 7 at the Winter Meetings in Las Vegas to consider the pre-1943 candidates include: seven Hall of Fame members (Bobby Doerr, Ralph Kiner, Phil Niekro, Robin Roberts, Duke Snider, Don Sutton and Dick Williams), along with five historians (Furman Bisher, Roland Hemond, Steve Hirdt, Bill Madden and Claire Smith).
                      <<

                      Unfortunately the number of living HOFers is high and they have avoided scholars. Only Hemond is notable for any participation in SABR, a baseball research society. Once bitten by the Negro Leagues Committee?

                      Has any one of them succeeded Jerome Holtzman as official historian?
                      Last edited by Paul Wendt; 09-16-2008, 02:21 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
                        Guys, let's face it. Every time the HoF tries to straighten out the past with these VC committees it just gets worse. It's time to call a halt to the lunacy and accept they are never going to get it right. It's better to let some of the deserving go uninducted than to continue this charade which keeps making mistakes.
                        That's rather defeatist, don't you think?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                          That's rather defeatist, don't you think?
                          KCG said it three weeks ago, they don't have a clue whom to put on these committees.

                          But they may know just what they are doing, serving their constituencies, the Hall of Fame members and the baseball writers.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Classic View Post
                            Link.

                            Dick Allen
                            Gil Hodges
                            Jim Kaat
                            Tony Oliva
                            Al Oliver
                            Vada Pinson
                            Ron Santo
                            Luis Tiant
                            Joe Torre
                            Maury Wills

                            Frankly, this is a much worse ballot than the pre-1943 one, IMHO.

                            I'd only be willing to vote for Santo, Allen, Torre and possibly Oliva and Tiant.

                            I can't believe Minnie Minoso and Ken Boyer were left off this ballot!
                            POS Name H-factor All-time within era
                            1B Allen 9030 40th all-time 6th in his era
                            SP Kaat 12,501 38th all-time 5th in era
                            CF Oliver 10,157 12th all-time 2nd in era
                            CF Pinson 9885 17th all-time 3rd in era
                            3B Santo 9198 11th all-time 3rd in era
                            SP Tiant 11,361 53rd all-time 8th in era
                            C Torre 8539 13th all-time, 2nd in his era
                            SS Wills 9629 14th all-time 2nd in era
                            1B Hodges 10,839 18th all-time 1st in his era
                            RF Oliva 8381 49th all-time, 6th in era

                            These are awesome choices. I would probably not be as much of a fan of dick allen, or Tony Oliva, but the rest of them can all be inducted for whatever that's worth. I'd say Ron Santo would be my 3rd least favorite, but 3B is underappreciated in the hall, so I could see it. I do like Ken boyer better though. I think the Veteran's Committee got it right.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is finally Santo's year. He towers over the rest of the competition.

                              Dick Allen - Absolutely a must. He's a lock if 9 of these 12 men can forgive his personality.

                              Gil Hodges - Much respect for the Dodger great. A gray area candidate hampered by a short career.

                              Jim Kaat - NO! Wouldn't be a horrible selection all around but he's here only because of his win total.

                              Tony Oliva - Definitely pushing it. Well behind at his position.

                              Al Oliver - Gray area in my eyes. Superb counting stats could be his ticket in.

                              Vada Pinson - Just not quite there. Low-end of the gray area and too big of a stretch for this committee.

                              Ron Santo - Came achingly close in the last few elections. I say he finally clears the hurdle. Can't hurt that he has some contemporaries on the panel and the historians should gush over him.

                              Luis Tiant - Better than Kaat. He's actually in my gray area from time to time. Don't think either of the two pitchers have the "wow" factor that comes from a great peak since neither absolutely dominated in their prime.

                              Joe Torre - A double gray-area guy for me. I'd rather see him enshrined as a player though because his management expertise pretty much coincided with a big payroll.

                              Maury Wills - The biased onlooker in me smiles at this selection, but there's just no way he's deserving. Painfully short career with some mediocre seasons tossed in there.


                              My ballot:

                              Dick Allen
                              Ron Santo
                              Joe Torre (Just to avoid him being a manager inductee, Hall could use another catcher that was as great at their best)
                              Last edited by BlueBlood; 09-16-2008, 07:03 PM.
                              1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                              1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                              1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                              1966 1974 1977 1978


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