Does "Cheating" apply to pitchers also?

[jpenrod]

I'm not arguing that steroids don't improve player performance, or add to the number of games a healthy player can participate in. I'm questioning whether something is "cheating" if it's not against the rules.

The substances Barry Bonds is accused of taking were/are illegal. In my opinion if something is illegal in the U.S. than it is not something baseball should have to regulate. Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't there several players that served suspensions for using cocaine in the 80's and early 90's? Was it against the rules of baseball to use cocaine or was it just that cocaine was an illegal drug and there for "against the rules of baseball. To me the fact that these substances that Bonds is accused of taking were/are illegal seperates his case from cases of players taking legal supplements. A perfect example is McGwire. He has admitted to using Andro at a time that it was a legal substance and not banned by baseball, because it was legal and not banned, while I may not like the fact he took it, he did nothing "wrong". If Aaron did in fact take Greenies at a time that they were legal and not banned bay baseball, hed did nothing "wrong", if if I might not agree with the choice.

[WhiteSoxSteve]

Of course pitchers who doctor the ball are cheaters. The people who thinks Bonds records should be erased should also think that Perry's records should be erased or you are a hypocrite.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Who here at Fever has come out and said they were in favor of Bonds' records being erased? Even those at the extreme opposite end from the apologists haven't mentioned that. Not that I've read on here.

[Chadwick]

There is a very distinct difference between a moral and legal reasoning. What is illegal is not always immoral. What is immoral is not always illegal.

Furthermore, there are a great many illegal things that have no bearing on the game of baseball. Baseball tends to turn a blind eye to all kinds of illegal behavior. The "recreational drug" cases - well known enough not to need recounting here - are a perfect example of how baseball has chosen to deal with these things haphazardly at best and inconsistently at worst.

Baseball has its own rules prohibiting certain forms of behavior - just ask Pete Rose - because those behaviors affect the integrity of the game. Speeding tickets, murder trials, cocaine habits, etc. do not. Gambling certainly does. And while steroids certainly do, too, baseball had no rules against it prior to 2003.

There is absolutely no justification for refusing to admit an otherwise qualified Hall-of-Famer on the basis that he used steroids during his career.

Brady Anderson was mentioned earlier. Anderson was very much assisted by steroids but he was not a "home run hitter." (Not, at least, outside of the affects of his steroid usage.) No one in their right mind would consider Anderson remotely close to a Hall-of-Famer. Ken Caminiti, who's very bleak case was based almost entirely on his MVP season pretty much torched his Hall resume by his steroids admission, but Caminiti wasn't an otherwise qualified Hall-of-Famer.

Pitchers. Hitters. No player should be kept out of the Hall of Fame for "cheating." If Baseball wants to "get tough" with cheaters, then they need to consistently enforce some rational prohibitions on all forms of cheating at the game, team and season level. Fines and suspensions need to be worked out. Let the penalties for the consequences of cheating be stated, in advance, and be proportional to the "crime". And for the love of God, let Baseball enforce them!

You don't start this process by placing cheaters on the ineligible list. That's where you end it.

[jpenrod]

A couple of points here:

1. I never said that any of Bonds records should be erased, modified, or in any other way seperatedfrom other records. Whatever records he currently holds are the records and should/will remain the records until someone breaks them.

2. I never said Bonds should not be admitted to the Hall of Fame. On the contrary, I believe Bonds is a worthy Hall of Famer despite the alleged steroid use.

3. I only said, if he did in fact use steroids (I personally believe he did), I do not want him to hold the title of Home Run King. That is not to say baseball should do anything to prevent him from doing it or adjust his homerun totals or put an asterick next to his name if he does break Aarons record. I simply hope he falls just short and decides to retire.

If you can find anything that I posted that does not support these three points please let me know, because I have never intended to indicate otherwise.

[Chadwick]

jpenrod,

I have no problem with anything you said in that last post. Nice summary of your position.

I think we'll find an overwhelming majority of people are going to be rooting against Bonds' pursuit of 756.

[Appling]

... if he did in fact use steroids (I personally believe he did), I do not want him to hold the title of Home Run King. That is not to say baseball should do anything to prevent him from doing it or adjust his homerun totals or put an asterick next to his name if he does break Aarons record. I simply hope he falls just short and decides to retire.

This seems to be an ideal solution to this delema.
And just ignore his breaking the "Ruth record" of 714 career homeruns, because that number is now only the American League record. As a career NL player, Bonds cannot break an AL record.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

How many wins would these pitchers have without cheating?
Would they still be viable candidates for the Hall of Fame?

Not going to let these guys off scott free but I think the illegal pitches thrown by Perry is greatly over stated. If he threw one illegal pitch in his whole career that was enough, he broke a rule. The point, I doubt he threw as many as some believe. Here we have a pitcher whose every pitch, because of his rep is watched by the opposing bench, first and third base coaches and the umps and I don't think he was ejected for rule breaking more than a couple of times (might only be one time) in all those years. How did he wet up or Vaseline a ball with all those eyes on him and never get caught more than a couple of times.

When a hitter is on steroids, it's a built in performance enhancer, with him all the time and at times undetectable or covered by masking agents.

All the talking in the world about previous rule breakers won't lessen the dark cloud over Barry, even when he retires, he takes that cloud with him. Rule breakers of the past do get a pass in my book, but this is our time, steroids is the issue that is up front today.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that pitchers tend to get a free pass when it comes to cheating, certainly more than hitters.
]

No one is giving pitchers a free pass but the offensive explosion in the 1990s and some of what we have learned about steroid use is a more compelling story and it's the issue on the front burner today.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Suppose Barry just came out and says, OK I did use steroids but here was no rule against the use of them at that time. Of course I doubt that will ever happen but how would that play out with the public if he did.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Of course pitchers who doctor the ball are cheaters. The people who thinks Bonds records should be erased should also think that Perry's records should be erased or you are a hypocrite.

I don't think past records of some rule breakers should be erased and neither should Barry's even if he did use steroids after the ban, nothing can be done about either. If you want to call it a "mental asterisk" I think that best describes the public's view. They will hold some numbers in doubt and it may cause them to lower the rank of some that they believed broke rules.

[GnomeansGno]

When a hitter is on steroids, it's a built in performance enhancer, with him all the time and at times undetectable or covered by masking agents.

Not Necessarily true actually, just injecting steroids in ones buttox won't " enhance " your performance right away, it isnt amphetamines or ritalin. Steroids are a process, long workouts, better eating, and stacking them properly and carefully to recieve the best benefits. If Mcgwire and canseco were injecting eachother in stalls before eachgame, that was doing more harm than good, which probably explains why both of them spent so much time on the DL throughout their careers.


[QUOTE]All the talking in the world about previous rule breakers won't lessen the dark cloud over Barry, even when he retires, he takes that cloud with him. Rule breakers of the past do get a pass in my book, but this is our time, steroids is the issue that is up front today. [QUOTE]

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not giving anyone a free pass, or condoning their actions. I'm just not appalled or surprised by players trying to get an edge, it's happened for years in ALL sports, and it will never stop.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Whitey Ford's ball scuffing, Gaylord Perry's spitball, Brett's pine tar incident, corked bats by Sammy Sosa and Albert Belle, Graig Nettles' "superballs," Mike Kelly's exploits on the basepaths, the "legally" grandfathered spitballers in the 1920's, Cobb's well-documented tactics on the base paths, the Orioles and Beaneater teams of the 1890's, etc.

There were rules against what Ford and Perry did, what could be done about their rule breaking now, does that mean we now look the other way with steroids. That past rule breaking was no better but now it's in the past, steroids is the big story, the issue that is up front today.

Whats with Cobb on the basepaths, coming in high with spikes, running over an infielder, judgement calls by the umps. I don't even compare Cobb's style of play to illegal pitches, that was real rule breaking. How were 17 pitchers who were allowed to finish their careers throwing spitballs rule breaking.

Were going to beat this one to death, " what about past cheating", well what about it. What do we do about it, it was wrong but it won't take away that stain on Barry if he did use steroids after the ban and not only him, there were others.

[GnomeansGno]

No one is giving pitchers a free pass but the offensive explosion in the 1990s and some of what we have learned about steroid use is a more compelling story and it's the issue on the front burner today.

Comeon man, pitchers are getting off easy, even in the " steroid era ".

There's about as much evidence that sosa took steroids as there is clemens, and yet sosa is lumped in with Bonds and company, while clemens gets a free pass from the majority.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Not Necessarily true actually, just injecting steroids in ones buttox won't " enhance " your performance right away, it isnt amphetamines or ritalin. Steroids are a process, long workouts, better eating, and stacking them properly and carefully to recieve the best benefits. If Mcgwire and canseco were injecting eachother in stalls before eachgame, that was doing more harm than good, which probably explains why both of them spent so much time on the DL throughout their careers.

.

That was my point, perhaps wy wording gave you the wrong read on it.I understand you don't just inject and immediately benefit. I was speaking of one who used a steroid program over a period of time having that "built in" advantage as compared to a spit baller or corked bat user taking a chance on occassions.