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  • Originally posted by jalbright View Post
    I'll give my cases for the three I've named as most electable that I actually support. I'll leave it to others to present the cases for the ones I'm more inclined to simply not block (Walker, Pearce, Hernandez).

    Darrell Evans

    Tommy Leach

    Vern Stephens
    Each of those guys has a good case, but I honestly think of the over 50% guys left, we should probably focus on Leach, Stephens and Hernandez. Da. Evans has the same kind of baggage attached to his case guys like Beckley, Browning and Klein have and I doublt we'll make enough headway to get him elected. Those other two + Hernandez have the best cases for election, IMO. Out of them all, Vern Stephens may be the best player not already elected.
    Last edited by jjpm74; 08-10-2008, 06:02 PM.

    Comment


    • Paul,

      Of the two sites you mention, I'm more persuaded by the timeline, which recognizes Shoriki as establishing the first professional team, and the one which became the powerhouse and backbone of Japanese professional baseball, the Yomiuri Giants. Perhaps the other gentleman was very influential before his Eagles folded, but his contribution faded with his team. Moreover, I'm a little suspicious of someone overselling the subject of their book a bit in that second one. Shoriki was very influential at the start and remained so for the time of his involvement in Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB).
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
        Each of those guys has a good case, but I honestly think of the over 50% guys left, we should probably focus on Leach, Stephens and Hernandez. Da. Evans has the same kind of baggage attached to his case guys like Beckley, Browning and Klein have and I doublt we'll make enough headway to get him elected. Those other two + Hernandez have the best cases for election, IMO. Out of them all, Vern Stephens may be the best player not already elected.
        Could be. I was a little leery of listing Evans, but he's seemed to generally keep moving forward, and I'd rather list a few more than too few, so I included him. I'd add Dickey Pearce to your list, because Dickey belongs in either as a player or as a contributor, and we're no more than about 3 months from that "annual" contributor election, so pushing Dickey has a dual purpose. Walker's moved up lately, and while I'm not sold on giving him "no-block" status, it's a close enough call for me that I'd give it strong consideration.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • If we added up Walker supporters, people who formerly supported Walker (such as myself), and those willing to "not-block" him, he'd definitely be in. He's a perpetual gray are for me. I'd consider voting for him in order to get him past the edge but

          1) His career is too short for a guy that doesn't have totally overwhelming stats (albeit that they are fantastic)

          &

          2) I don't see the point of inducting another outfielder to this project, especially one I'm not remotely set on.
          1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

          1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
          1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
          1966 1974 1977 1978


          1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
          2013 2014


          1996 2006

          Comment


          • I'm open to considering putting him in the no-block category. I haven't been sold on that point.
            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

            Comment


            • Walker is too middle of the road for me to consider adding.

              Comment


              • Baggage and all

                If we're going to elect 1 more player, I think it should come out of this group:

                Jake Beckley (missed by 1 vote last time and is in the HOM!)
                Darrell Evans
                Sam Rice for the Sam Rice folks, why Rice and not Beckley?
                Keith Hernandez

                As for the rest of the guys who have support, I don't think any with the exceptions of Stephens and possibly Newcombe have a chance at election. Here's their breakdown:

                Of the guys who missed by 4 votes, Pete Browning I could live with. Lefty Gomez and Chuck Klein are borderline but had decent enough careers. Tommy Leach along with Vern Stephens are probably the two best outside of the BBFHOF at this point that have support. Edgar Martinez wouldn't be a bad choice as he put up some impressive offensive numbers. Larry Walker who is probably the weakest of the candidates with 9 votes, IMO.

                Of the 8s, Dickey Pearce is definitely over the line but more as a contributor. Jimmy Sheckard I could live with. Mickey Welch is a weak candidate, but has his 300 wins.

                Of the 7s, Graig Nettles had a high peak. Ochiai I know very little about and too many doubts led me to removing him. Palmiero has PEDs issues, but so do lots of guys we already elected and his counting stats and peak are well over the line. Maybe he is someone to take a closer look at. Pike was a superstar in the 1860s. Jim Rice has lots of baggage. Bucky Walters might be one of the best pitchers we've yet to elect.

                Of the 6s, Kiki Cuyler is well out and is probably getting support because he is in the HOF. Keller needs too many credits and there's too much to assume in him. Lombardi is an average candidate. Trouppe is overvalued, IMO. Jimmy Wynn I don't understand at all.

                Of the 5s, Don Newcombe seems to have picked up support at a decent pace. Had he been introduced earlier, he may have already been elected. The best pitcher not already elected, IMO. Phil Rizzuto is in if you give him credit for 3 full seasons missed during his peak. The problem is people don't seem willing to do this for various reasons. Jimmy Ryan is borderline but comparable to several players we already elected. Lee Smith was a great compiler.

                Of the 4s and below, Omar Linares is someone who is well over the line but was introduced to the people casting the ballots late in the game.

                Anyway, just my :twocents:
                Last edited by jjpm74; 08-13-2008, 11:44 AM.

                Comment


                • Sam Rice for the Sam Rice folks, why Rice and not Beckley?
                  You persuaded me. I'm no longer one of the "Sam Rice folks". He's off my ballot.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • We've only got six (6) votes so far. I won't be doing a status report unless/until we have at least eight (8) votes cast.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • Now that we've gotten to eight votes, I'll do a status report. I won't touch on anyone under four votes, as any candidate at three would need either a changed vote and a sweep of the remaining votes (minimum of eight votes) or would need to sweep at least 12 votes (three more than last election). The likelihood of anyone putting those scenarios together is so remote as to not be worth talking about.

                      The fours have a very tough road--they need to sweep the remaining votes with a minimum of eight unless we get to 20 total votes, at which point they could miss one. The fours are: Darrell Evans, Kiki Cuyler, Lefty Gomez, Tommy Leach, Ernie Lombardi, Hiromitsu Ochiai and Jim Rice. Only one, Darrell Evans, had the support of more than 5 of the remaining nine voters. Evans had the support of eight, so he has a decent chance. One changed vote from those cast or if the one of the remaining nine chooses to add him, he'd be on a pace to make it. The rest of the fours have little to no chance of making it this election.

                      The fives have to sweep the vote if there are seven or less (minimum of four), and can miss one if we get eight to eleven more votes. If we get to 20 total, they can miss two. There are three candidates currently at five votes: Keith Hernandez, Pete Browning, and Chuck Klein. Hernandez had the support of six of the nine yet to vote, so he's got a shot, but he needs to pick up some support. He has the advantage of being on yours truly's "don't block" list, which certainly helps his chances. He's got to pick up at least one vote, though. Neither Browning nor Klein are on my "don't block" list, and their support is weaker (Browning five of the remaining nine, Klein four). They're longshots.

                      The sixes need to sweep the vote if three more are cast, as that's our minimum necessary to elect a candidate. If four to seven more are cast, they can miss one. If eight to eleven more are cast, they can miss two. If twelve to fifteen more are cast, they can miss three. The three at this level are Jake Beckley, Sam Rice, and Vern Stephens. Sam Rice had the support of only four of the remaining nine, and Stephens even less at three. They're longshots. Beckley had the support of six, so he's got a reasonable shot.

                      We don't have anyone with more than six votes thus far.
                      Last edited by jalbright; 08-17-2008, 05:12 AM.
                      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                      Comment


                      • If it comes down to a situation where Browning needs 1 vote to be elected, he will get that vote from me. I will not add him to my ballot, but I'm not opposed to seeing him elected.

                        Comment


                        • Well, this new single vote ballot puts Browning at 6 of 9 votes, and thanks to jjpm74, he's technically at 7 of 9 if he ends up anywhere close to election. I was going to argue his case this go-around and it looks like there's no better time for a push. If that single vote ballot remains (which actually isn't too ludicrous if you consider where this project is at), Browning's the only viable candidate...
                          1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                          1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                          1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                          1966 1974 1977 1978


                          1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                          2013 2014


                          1996 2006

                          Comment


                          • Jake Beckley remains closer, projecting to 12 of 18 votes while Browning still only projects to 11 of 18. Hernandez projects to 11 as well, but he's on my "don't block" list, which puts him even with Browning. I'm not fond of the 19th century short career types among position players, and Browning is definitely one of those.

                            Actually, Darrell Evans projects to 12 as well, but, absent a changed ballot, the best he can do is 13, while these others have the potential to get elected.

                            Note: the projecting process is adding votes received in this election plus votes from those who voted for him last election but have yet to vote in this one.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • --Browning has the short career, the terrible defense and his playing in the weaker league - of the 1880s - working against him. I can't see how he stands head and shoulders above the rest of the gray area candidates - and that is clearly what all our remaining choices are.
                              --I am not very happy with the idea of editing ballots just to elect someone either. Maybe if you had a full ballot then switching to someone in your queue who has a chance over someone who doesn't is fair enough. If you have ballot space and decide a player is not worthy then you should live with that decision unless evidence comes forth on a player you overlooked. The only "evidence" I've seen presented for Browning is "he has a good shot to help us elect somebody".

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BlueBlood View Post
                                Well, this new single vote ballot puts Browning at 6 of 9 votes, and thanks to jjpm74, he's technically at 7 of 9 if he ends up anywhere close to election. I was going to argue his case this go-around and it looks like there's no better time for a push. If that single vote ballot remains (which actually isn't too ludicrous if you consider where this project is at), Browning's the only viable candidate...
                                If the 1 person ballot were cast by someone who's been participating in this project for a while, I wouldn't speak up, but it wasn't. It was cast by someone who has never participated in this project in the past and I'm sorry, but I'm a bit skeptical as to how much thought was actually put into it. If the newcomer doesn't either come up with a justification for casting a 1 person ballot or add some names to it, I retract my offer to not block Browning.
                                Last edited by jjpm74; 08-17-2008, 09:27 AM.

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