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  • 2Chance:

    With respect to Clark Griffith, I used to agree with you. However, I have changed my mind, and this part of one of my posts should give some hint of why I did so:

    Clark Griffith: He's got a better pitching record than I thought (nearly or actually HOF caliber in its own right), and then when you add in the fact he was a reasonably successful manager (career record over .500), he owned a World Champion club and another pennant winner and owned that franchise for a long time, I have to say the combination makes him deserving of the honor.

    Also, Griffith initially owned the AL New York franchise and had it in contention to the last day in 1904.

    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • Don't know how I missed the rules in the first thread. 2Chance, jalbright, thanks for the info, and I'll submit a ballot shortly.
      "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

      - Alvin Dark

      Comment


      • 2 Chance: Agree with you 100% on Albert Belle. He's not yet on my ballot, but will eventually make it. Once Rose and Joe Jackson were elected, there was no longer any viable argument left to not vote for someone due to their character. I don't care for Belle as a person, either, but his numbers speak for themselves.

        Davey Johnson - Never realized how good a managerial record he had. You have convinced me, and I have added him to my queue.

        Rollie Fingers - Don't agree 100%, he may go on my ballot eventually. However. Sutter and Quisenberry will have to go in first.

        Chuck Klein - ditto your sentiments. In the NHBA, James has him rated 40th in right field.

        Harry Caray - with apologies to Cubs fans, including my nephew, I could never understand why he was considered a great broadcaster. Sometimes I couldn't even understand what he was saying, and a lot of the time when I could understand him, he was wrong. IMHO, they lost more when Steve Stone left.

        Clark Griffith - I wouldn't vote for him strictly as a manager. But I think his overall package (excellent pitching record, owner, manager) is worth his election.
        You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

        Comment


        • Put up a thread with Negro League data cut and pasted from Baseball Think Factory here: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=45199

          Jim Albright
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • After looking over Griffith's credentials more closely, he zips to the head of the class...for next time. Thanks, guys, for his advocacy. And yes, my research included more than your two posts.
            "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
            --Bob Feller

            Comment


            • Got a bunch of votes cast this past week. Through yest's ballot, we have the following:

              Players:
              22 votes cast so far, 5 outstanding votes from last month
              Report limited to those who already have 16 votes (including best Japanese, etc), as we'd need to get to 28 votes for those guys to have any chance.

              Joe Gordon 19 votes so far, and 3 of the five outstanding voters selected him last month. It would take an extreme combination of occurrences to stop him this month.

              Ted Lyons 18 votes so far, but none of the outstanding voters supported him last month. He can absorb being left off of two ballots, but no more*.

              Earl Averill Also has 18 votes so far, but had the support of two of the outstanding voters last month. He also can absorb being left off of two ballots, but no more*. If he picks up even one of the ones who didn't support him last month, he's in*.

              Stan Hack Has exactly the same number of votes and scenario as Aveill.

              The contributor ballot is a tad more complex, but overly so.
              17 votes cast, 5 outstanding votes from last month
              Reporting only contributors who already have 12 votes, as anyone with less would need us to reach 24 votes to have any chance.

              Tetsuharu Kawakami 14 votes so far, and supported by 2 of the 5 outstanding voters last month. He could absorb being left off of one ballot and still make it, and even would make it if left off two ballots so long as he got at least one more vote*. If he's left off 3 ballots, he's cooked*.

              Harry Caray 13 votes so far and supported by 2 of the 5 outstanding voters last month. If no one else voted, he'd be elected, and could absorb being left off of one ballot provided he got two more votes.* If he's left off of two ballots, he's cooked.*

              Calvin Griffith Same exact number of votes and scenario as Caray.

              Ernie Harwell 13 votes so far, and supported by 3 of the 5 outstanding voters last month. Again, if no one else voted, he'd be elected, and could absorb being left off of one ballot provided he got two more votes.* If he's left off of two ballots, he's cooked.*

              C. I. Taylor 12 votes so far, and supported by only one of the five outstanding voters last month. He's got to run the table with a minimum of three votes*.

              *--assuming no new voters nor changes in ballots already cast

              There are two key factors to watch: which of the outstanding voters cast ballots, and do any of them add any of the above candidates to their ballot. If all five vote and don't change their positions on these five, only Gordon makes it. However, if even one doesn't vote, every candidate discussed in this post not on "his" ballot except perhaps C. I. Taylor has his chances improve. I think we'll have a rather high number of candidates making or missing election this month by one vote.

              Jim Albright
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • This month is in the books with three players and three contributors elected. The three players are Joe Gordon, Earl Averill, and Stan Hack. The contributors are Tetsuharu Kawakami, Ernie Harwell, and Clark Griffith.

                A special word of thanks to those who supported Kawakami.

                More complete information on the voting will be available on the voting thread ( http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=44131&page=2 ) or in the forthcoming July voting guide.

                Jim Albright
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                Comment


                • We have now reached the point where a ballot consisting of one or more contributor names submitted in good faith is a valid ballot.

                  Jim Albright
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • Players new to my ballot

                    Dobie Moore: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=59

                    Bobby Doerr: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=269



                    Contributors returning to my ballot

                    Vic Harris Won seven pennants with the Homestead Grays, 5 of them consecutively. He had a lot of talent, but with that talent comes egos, and he managed to keep them on top. Also a talented player. Probably a good analogy is Joe Torre. For more about him, see this post: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=61

                    Dr. Jobe His invention of the Tommy John surgery has saved countless pitching careers, including, of course, Tommy John's.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • I would like to see more like the one Jim posted earlier and I followed with much later, of stumping for or against certain candidates. Anybody controversial or on the IN/OUT border would be interesting to see. Also, anybody who is not getting the attention you feel they deserve, or those who you can't understand others' fascination with. Any takers?

                      Also....
                      Although we have reached a point where we can submit a short ballot, which I thought for a long time would be a good idea, I have changed my mind on the methodology I use while voting, and will continue to submit a full ballot of those who I think are most worthy. Doing this will still enshrine those who are most worthy, and even if they are not my personal favorites, those chosen should reflect the collective wisdom of the electorate.
                      Last edited by 2Chance; 06-26-2006, 11:44 PM.
                      "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
                      --Bob Feller

                      Comment


                      • Players with 50% or more of the vote in June

                        On my July ballot

                        Ted Lyons: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=180

                        Bobby Grich http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=203

                        Isao Harimoto: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=184

                        Max Carey: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=266

                        George Wright: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=98

                        Harry Stovey: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=210

                        Dale Murphy: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=224

                        Cannonball Dick Redding: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=52

                        Hugh Duffy: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=262

                        Rollie Fingers: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=236


                        Probably will support in the near future:

                        Carl Mays http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=283


                        Players I'm not likely to support and why

                        Albert Belle: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=151

                        Addie Joss: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=244

                        Chuck Klein: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=155

                        Mickey Welch: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=192

                        Jim Albright
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • Contributors with 50% or more of last month's vote

                          There are only two with 50% or more I am currently not supporting, Jacque Doucet and Vin Scully. I'm more apt to be persuaded by Scully, as I want media types to have a national impact, which you might be able to persuade me Scully meets by virtue of his network telecasts.

                          My blurbs for the rest:

                          Harry Caray Though his status as a Chicago baseball mainstay is important, lots of announcers have that qualification and I'm not voting for them. What sets Harry apart in my mind is his role in popularizing the use of "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" for the seventh inning stretch. Put the two together, and I think he qualifies.

                          C. I. Taylor built the Indianapolis ABCs into a powerhouse franchise in the teens. Riley says he is one of the two "geniuses" to manage in the Negro Leagues, the other being Rube Foster. For more about him, see this post: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=62

                          Buck O'Neill see this post: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=248

                          Jack Dunn: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=249

                          George Weiss see this from Cooperstown's website: http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...iss_George.htm

                          Hughie Jennings 24 James manager success points. An excellent shortstop, albeit in a short career. I can't go for him just as a player nor just as a manager, but when you combine it with his success as a manager, I can.
                          Last edited by jalbright; 06-27-2006, 09:18 AM.
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • Luis Aparicio

                            I am a little surprised about how few love has Luis Aparicio among voters. Usually the reference for a defensive "non plus ultra" SS is Ozzie Smith, and I understand that specially by his range , but Luis Aparicio was not far from Ozzie about defensive skills and he has better HOF monitor numbers:
                            Smith: Black Ink 2; Gray Ink 51; HOF Standards 35; HOF monitor 142.5
                            Aparicio: Black Ink 19; Gray Ink 85; HOF Standards 36; HOF monitor 140.5

                            Both played all their carrers as SS and until I know Aparicio is the SS with most hits at the position with 2677 vs 2460 by Smith (to save time for those who does not have this data, neither Wagner, Yount, Ripken and Appling played all their carrers as SS). And Aparicio played his best years in the 60's dread hitting pitchers era and if you have to name a SS in that decade the name of Little Lou is the first that come to the mind.

                            I am not voting by Aparicio because he is venezuelan, I am voting by him because I think he deserves the honor by his merits as one of the best defensive SS of all times . And see how low he is considered overhere, with two or three votes meanwhile Smith has his name in looks a little weird for me.
                            Last edited by mtortolero; 06-27-2006, 02:52 PM.
                            You have to suffer a revolution to know what are you talking about.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mtortolero
                              I am a little surprised about how few love has Luis Aparicio among voters. Usually the reference for a defensive "non plus ultra" SS is Ozzie Smith, and I understand that specially by his range , but Luis Aparicio was not far from Ozzie about defensive skills and he has better HOF monitor numbers:
                              Smith: Black Ink 2; Gray Ink 51; HOF Standards 35; HOF monitor 142.5
                              Aparicio: Black Ink 19; Gray Ink 85; HOF Standards 36; HOF monitor 140.5

                              Both played all their carrers as SS and until I know Aparicio is the SS with most hits at the position with 2677 vs 2460 by Smith (to save time for those who does not have this data, neither Wagner, Yount, Ripken and Appling played all their carrers as SS). And Aparicio played his best years in the 60's dread hitting pitchers era and if you have to name a SS in that decade the name of Little Lou is the first that come to the mind.

                              I am not voting by Aparicio because he is venezuelan, I am voting by him because I think he deserves the honor by his merits as one of the best defensive SS of all times . And see how low he is considered overhere, with two or three votes meanwhile Smith has his name in looks a little weird for me.
                              A major problem with Aparicio is that Luis walked very little, and thus had an OBP of .311, while Ozzie's was more respectable at .337. Despite the era, Ozzie's OPS+ is 87, Aparicio's 82. I think they ultimately both belong, and personally, I feel Ozzie got in earlier than he deserved, probably because he's 1) recent and 2) popular. I don't disagree with you very much here, just explaining what I think is going on.

                              Jim Albright
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment


                              • Who doesn't love Looie?

                                Luis happens to be one of my all-time favorites. (And, mtortolero, if I thought it was worthwhile I would be stumping for your fellow countryman Davey Concepcion as well.)

                                Aparicio indeed is a great glove man, and at that time, hitting was secondary for middle infielders -- almost to the same point as pitchers! -- so we can't hold that against him. But what he did do, was steal 506 bases (which SABR guys hate, but they weren't around in his day), led the league in SB in his first nine years by the by, make 10 All Star teams, earn nine Gold Gloves, and though he gets criticized here for not taking a walk, he almost never struck out, either (about 7.25% of the time, or once every 13.79 ABs). He also did what the little guys are supposed to do, which is make a lot of Sac hits.

                                This entire exercise is about putting the 25 most worthy players on the ballot each month until the BBFHoF is filled. Little Luis might be on my ballot this time, I just haven't completely worked it out yet.
                                Last edited by 2Chance; 06-27-2006, 07:21 PM.
                                "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
                                --Bob Feller

                                Comment

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