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  • Originally posted by jalbright View Post
    Since next week we'll be dealing with contributors on the 2008 annual ballot, I'm going to put forward my cases for a few favorites.
    Following your lead, I decided to post my cases for contributors, perhaps some still deciding will find this info useful in who to vote for;

    Japanese contributors:

    Iso Abe (Named Father of University Baseball in Japan)

    Abe was a professor at Tokyo Senmon Gakk├┤ (now known as Waseda
    University). In 1901 Abe recommended to the Univerisity that baseball be introduced into the curriculum and pointed out the advantages of baseball. He believed that baseball would give students more attentiveness, team spirit, decision-making and didn’t require extreme physical exercise to play. In 1905 he took his students to the U.S. to play some exhibition games against American college students. This not only helped develop his students baseball skills but helped increase the popularity of baseball in Japan.

    Plaque and bio of Iso Abe in Japanese Hall of Fame.

    http://english.baseball-museum.or.jp...etail_004.html

    Matsutaro Shoriki (Named Father of Professional Baseball in Japan)

    Shoriki was an owner of a major newspaper in Japan which helped develop more popularity for baseball. In 1934 he organized a Japanese All Star team to play against an American All Star team and aftwards went pro with his players who became the Yomiuiri Giants. Shoriki became the first Japanese baseball commisioner and help develop professional baseball in Japan with a two league structure and Japanese chapionship Series.

    Plaque and bio of Matsutaro Shoriki in Japanese Hall of Fame.

    http://english.baseball-museum.or.jp...etail_001.html

    Horace Wilson (First person to introduce Baseball in Japan)

    Dr. Horace Wilson first introduced baseball to some Japanese students around 1872. He was an American professor teaching English at Kaisei Gakko (Now known as Tokyo University). The story goes that Horace thought his students needed to get away from their studies and get some exercise. He took them outside and introduced them to the sport of baseball. Months later, enough interest had developed for the school to sponsor a seven inning game between the Japanese students and American instructors. Baseball started to take off from there and 131 years after the first introduction, Dr. Wilson was inducted by a special committee into the Japanese Hall of Fame.

    An interesting article I found on Japanese Hall of fame representatives tracking down and flying relatives of Horace to Japan to honor Wilson in a ceremony.

    http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/st...06835&ac=PHspt

    Plaque and bio of Horace Wilson in Japanese Hall of Fame.

    http://english.baseball-museum.or.jp...etail_148.html

    Negro League Contributors:

    Vic Harris (Player, manager)

    Harris spent 23 years with the Homestead Grays in the NeL as a player and manager. He was a very successful manager winning 9 pennats and two NeL World Series titles. He was reportedly a good motivator and well respected by his players.

    http://www.coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/hi...s/harrisv.html

    Alejandro “Alex” Pompez (owner, scout, Hall of Fame committee member)

    I debated on Pompez because of his connections to the mob. Pompez was tipped off that he was to be arrested and fled to Mexico to avoid jail time. However he later returned and helped to turn evidence against other mobsters. Because his Mob connections appear to have nothing to do with his Baseball contributions. I decided to vote for him. He was an influencial owner of the NY Cubans and helped establish the first NeL World Series and was instrumental in getting lights installed for night games in the 1930’s. He also served as Vice President of the Negro leagues in the early 1940’s, then became a scout for the NY Giants and helped bring Black and Latin players into the Major leagues.

    Hall of fame plaque.

    http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...layerId=506635

    Sol White (Player, author, manager)

    White played on various integrated as well as all Black barnstorming teams. He helped form the Philadelphia Giants where he was part owner, manager and player. He later managed several other Black teams. White wrote a book, Sol White's History of Colored Baseball. This book chronicles Black baseball players involvement in the game from 1885 to 1906as well as the dicrimination Black players faced. Sol spent his later years writing several articles in various Black newspapers.

    Hall of fame plaque.

    http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...layerId=506641


    Major League Contributors:


    Eloy “Buck” Canel (Broadcaster, sports writer)

    Canel broadcast 42 World Series over his career and also broadcast the Yankees and Mets in Spanish. Former Baseball Commissioner Peter Ueberroth said "His broadcasting of baseball to Latin America had a definite impact on the growth of baseball interest in that region and provided an equally important impetus for young Latinos dreaming about a career in professional baseball."

    Harry Caray (Broadcaster)

    For 50+ years, Caray was one of the most beloved broadcasters. He was famous for singing “Take me out to the Ball game” during the 7th inning stretch. He was well known to being biased towards his favorite team, and had a reputation for mastering all aspects of broadcasting. He sometimes mispronounced players names but his fans loved it. He was well known for using the phrase “Holy Cow”, which according to his autobiography, Caray trained himself to say to avoid using profanity on the air.

    Albert “Happy” Chandler (Commissioner of Baseball 1945-1951)

    During his tenure, Happy helped create the establishment of a pension fund for players, as well as overseeing integration of African American players into MLB. Even with pressure from all the other 15 clubs who disapproved allowing Blacks in the Majors, Happy approved the Dodgers' request to allow Jackie Robinson to play. He also was the first commissioner to put six umpires on the field for the WS.

    Ford Frick (NL President, Baseball Commissioner, Broadcaster, sports writer)

    Frick played a role in helping to establish the Baseball Hall of Fame. In 1947 as the NL president, he guaranteed Jackie Robson could play for the Dodgers to help Blacks integrate, and when some players planned a protest over the color barrior being broken, Frick threatened any players involved with suspension. He was instrumental in helping several clubs avoid bankruptcy. He helped add expansion teams, and established several TV contracts for Baseball.

    Dickey Pearce (Player, Manager Umpire)

    Pearce is said to have been a brilliant fielder and help create the shortstop position. With his aggressive fielding Pearce positioned himself where the batter was most likely to hit which often is where the modern SS plays today and is credited with creating the bunt.

    I'm still considering a few others as contributors as well as the players before I'll vote.
    Last edited by Dogdaze; 10-18-2008, 09:42 AM.

    Comment


    • I've heard it said Pompez was influential, yet I haven't seen much about what it was he influenced and in what direction. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place. If you have any specifics in that regard, I will be happy to consider them in Pompez' case. However, without such specifics, Pompez' case leaves me flat.

      Abe and Wilson are interesting additions to the discussion as well.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • Time for updates on the current state of the ballot.

        On the player side, we have 7 votes cast so far, with 11 folks from the last annual election yet to vote. I'll list the new candidates first, as they have no previous voting history to consider. Craig Biggio, Roger Clemens and Mike Piazza have garnered votes from all seven participants, and Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa have gotten six each. All five seem to be on a path toward induction at this moment.

        For the holdovers, I'll only consider those with at least a majority (4) of the votes cast so far. Anybody with three votes isn't likely to be elected anyway, as they'd have to run the table with a minimum of 9 more votes to get to 16 total votes, unless we got to 20 total votes, at which point they could miss one. Seeing as the only candidate who is mathematically alive without a changed vote with more than seven votes from the 11 who voted in the last regular election already has more than three votes, it doesn't seem likely we'll elect anyone from that pool.

        The folks with four votes need a minimum of five votes from this point to get elected. If there are five to eight votes cast, they need them all. If there are nine to twelve votes cast, they can only miss one. If more than twelve are cast, they can miss two. None of them has the support of more than seven from the 11 who voted in the last regular election but have yet to vote this time. It's safe to say they're longshots at best. Those candidates are: Addie Joss, Chuck Klein, Jim Rice, Lee Smith, Vern Stephens and Larry Walker.

        There are three candidates with five votes thus far: Jake Beckley, Lefty Gomez, and Sam Rice. Since the minimum standard for election is 9 votes, they all need at least four more. If only four are cast, they need them all. If five to eight are cast, they can miss one. If nine to twelve are cast, they can miss two, and if more are cast, they can miss three. Rice has almost no chance, since he had the support of only 4 of the 11 from last election yet to vote in this one. Joss had the support of seven of those 11, which makes him a longshot. Beckley had the support of eight of those 11, so, as seems his habit, he's tantilizingly close--but he continues to be unable to pick up that one extra vote from anyone. I'd guess that trend will continue, but it's not a certainty.

        On the contributor side, we have five ballots cast thus far. Only three candidates can muster a majority at this point, and that's who we'll focus on. Even the two at three votes, Vic Harris and Matsutoru Shoriki, need at least six more votes to make the minimum of nine. Those two need a sweep of six votes if that's all that's cast, can miss one if seven to ten votes are cast, and can miss two if 11 or more are cast. I'm not going to use the previous balloting as a guide, as a year ago is too much time to have much confidence votes have stayed the same. Regardless, Harris and Shoriki are longshots. Dickey Pearce is the last candidate with at least a majoritiy of the vote, and he's gotten all five. He needs four votes if four to six are cast, can miss three if seven to ten are cast, and can miss four if 11 or more are cast. He's in a solid position, and hopefully he can keep it up.
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jalbright View Post
          I've heard it said Pompez was influential, yet I haven't seen much about what it was he influenced and in what direction. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place. If you have any specifics in that regard, I will be happy to consider them in Pompez' case. However, without such specifics, Pompez' case leaves me flat.

          Abe and Wilson are interesting additions to the discussion as well.
          From what I've read on Pompez, he was influential in forming the first NeL WS in 1924 between the league champions from the ECL vs. NNL. He was influential in having lights installed for NeL night games (about 8 years before MLB started using lights regularly for night games) and was influential in Cuba where he was the first NeL owner to sign Latin stars such as Martin Dihigo.

          Comment


          • I just learned about him ...

            Frank C. Osborn.

            Sometimes you see something buried deep in an article, and it leads you to new discoveries. In this case, an article on Yankee Stadium noted that it was designed by Osborn Architects & Engineering, which had "constructed several other major league fields."

            Osborn Engineering, as it is usually called, was founded by Frank C. Osborn in 1900. During Osborn's lifetime, the firm designed the following ballparks:

            *League Park, Cleveland
            *Forbes Field
            *Comiskey Park
            *Griffith Stadium
            *Polo Grounds (rebuilding after fire)
            *Fenway Park
            *Tiger Stadium
            *Braves Field
            *Yankee Stadium
            *Sportsman's Park (1922 expansion/renovation)
            *Muehlebach Field, Kansas City (later home of the Athletics and Royals).

            After Osborn's death, his firm went on to build Cleveland's Municipal Stadium.

            At one point, eleven of MLB's sixteen teams were playing on fields either designed or substantially renovated by Frank C. Osborn's firm. With Forbes Field, Osborn introduced the stadium concourse to baseball parks (originally, Shibe Park did not have a concourse). In addition, the "throwback designs" of many recent ballparks were influenced by Osborn's original creations.

            Osborn is an obscure figure today, but, after looking at what he did, I think he might be worthy of election to the BBFHOF as a contributor.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by AG2004 View Post
              Frank C. Osborn.

              Sometimes you see something buried deep in an article, and it leads you to new discoveries. In this case, an article on Yankee Stadium noted that it was designed by Osborn Architects & Engineering, which had "constructed several other major league fields."

              Osborn Engineering, as it is usually called, was founded by Frank C. Osborn in 1900. During Osborn's lifetime, the firm designed the following ballparks:

              *League Park, Cleveland
              *Forbes Field
              *Comiskey Park
              *Griffith Stadium
              *Polo Grounds (rebuilding after fire)
              *Fenway Park
              *Tiger Stadium
              *Braves Field
              *Yankee Stadium
              *Sportsman's Park (1922 expansion/renovation)
              *Muehlebach Field, Kansas City (later home of the Athletics and Royals).

              After Osborn's death, his firm went on to build Cleveland's Municipal Stadium.

              At one point, eleven of MLB's sixteen teams were playing on fields either designed or substantially renovated by Frank C. Osborn's firm. With Forbes Field, Osborn introduced the stadium concourse to baseball parks (originally, Shibe Park did not have a concourse). In addition, the "throwback designs" of many recent ballparks were influenced by Osborn's original creations.

              Osborn is an obscure figure today, but, after looking at what he did, I think he might be worthy of election to the BBFHOF as a contributor.
              I found an article giving Charles Leavitt, Jr. credit as the architect for Forbes Field. Was he working for Osborn's firm? Before I could support Osborn, I'd want to know how much credit he personally deserves for those parks, beyond hiring talented architects who designed them. He may well deserve a lot--but he might not.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                I found an article giving Charles Leavitt, Jr. credit as the architect for Forbes Field. Was he working for Osborn's firm? Before I could support Osborn, I'd want to know how much credit he personally deserves for those parks, beyond hiring talented architects who designed them. He may well deserve a lot--but he might not.
                Recall, I doubt that Forbes Field was the first concrete & steel ballpark (fcsb).

                Note, AG2004 and jalbright do not link Frank Osborn and Charles Leavitt, Jr., to the fcsb.

                AG,
                What is your source on the Osborn firm?

                Jim,
                What is the article giving Charles Leavitt, Jr. credit as architect?

                All,
                An article at wikipedia credits Al Reach as architect of (for?) the Baker Bowl --one of the first concrete & steel ballparks in some sense. Learning more about Al Reach after 1880 is somewhere on a way-back burner for me. I expect to know more someday, but I expect to live with capacity to know such things for at least 20 more years, and I won't know more on schedule for BBF HOF elections unless it happens by fortune (most likely, someone else reads this note, investigates, reports here).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                  Recall, I doubt that Forbes Field was the first concrete & steel ballpark (fcsb).

                  Note, AG2004 and jalbright do not link Frank Osborn and Charles Leavitt, Jr., to the fcsb.

                  AG,
                  What is your source on the Osborn firm?
                  Osborn Architects & Engineering isn't getting credit for building the fcsb. It does, however, get credit for building the majority of those early ballparks.

                  The PDF file at
                  planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/landmark/arch/pdf/archdetailPrint.php?afil=&archID=189
                  -- created by the Cleveland Landmarks Commission -- lists some of the company's major works.

                  The www.ballparks.com site also lists the designers for each stadium.

                  Originally posted by jalbright
                  I found an article giving Charles Leavitt, Jr. credit as the architect for Forbes Field. Was he working for Osborn's firm? Before I could support Osborn, I'd want to know how much credit he personally deserves for those parks, beyond hiring talented architects who designed them. He may well deserve a lot--but he might not.
                  Leavitt had his own firm in New York, while Osborn was in Cleveland. Issues of Sporting Life from early 1912, available through the LA84 Foundation's website ( http://www.la84foundation.org ), give Osborn credit for recent parks in Cleveland, Washington, and New York, but not for the one in Pittsburgh.

                  Accounts from 1909 indicate that Leavitt designed Forbes Field. However, there was a redesign of Forbes Field after 1925. The stands down the right field line were extended. The installation of a roofed section behind right field reduced the home run distance by 20%. However, the bleachers that jutted out into center field were removed. The area in play behind home plate was also greatly reduced. After these renovations, the total capacity of Forbes Field had been increased by 64%. I don't know who did the renovations. However, I'm guessing that Osborn Engineering was involved with the redesign, and thus gained credit for "creating" the park. However, this renovation came after Frank's death.

                  According to one website on Detroit architecture, Tiger Stadium was jointly designed by Frank Osborn and his son, Kenneth:

                  http://buildingsofdetroit.com/places/tiger

                  The RPI Alumni Hall of Fame inducted the two Osborns as a team:

                  http://www.rpi.edu/about/hof/osborn.html

                  It says that Kenneth became the firm's "key person in stadium design" after he joined the business in 1911. However, the company had built some ballparks prior to that date. Furthermore, as Frank himself was a baseball fan with an engineer's knowledge of concrete and steel -- he was a leader in the development of reinforced concrete -- he was able to avoid some problems that other designers made. (Leavitt, for one, had the left field stands at Forbes Field jutting into the playing field itself. Thus, a fair ball that went 350 feet along the left field line would fall into a player's glove, but one that went 330 feet would fall into the stands. This situation was changed as part of the 1925 redesign.) The article from the Detroit architecture website seems to indicate that Frank was a key part of the design team himself. I think it's likely that Kenneth, while interested in stadia on his own, was also following in his father's footsteps, and that Frank made him the "key person" with a view to continuing the stadium construction business after his death.

                  Comment


                  • Time for the weekly update--and the last in-election one for a year. One week before dormancy, and we've had 11 voters cast their ballots, with seven from the last regular election yet to vote.

                    All the voters voted in the players' side. We'll talk about the five newcomers first, as they're dominating the discussion and have no history with the seven who voted last time but haven't yet this time. Piazza and Biggio are sailing through as expected, with all 11 votes. They could miss three in a row (and 3 of 4), or miss four from 5 to 8 votes cast, and 5 thereafter, so for them it's more a matter of whether they get in unanimously or not. Clemens is at nine votes, which means he can miss one vote in the next four, 2 from 5 to 8, and three if 9 or more. Barry Bonds and Sosa have 8, which means they need to sweep the vote if 4 or less are cast (minimum of one), can miss one if 5 to 8 are cast, and can miss two if 9 or more are cast. The issue with Bonds and Clemens is clearly PEDs, and is likely the key issue for Sosa as well. It all comes down to how the remaining voters deal with that issue. I've made my argument before on this point and won't repeat it here.

                    Among the holdovers, we can eliminate everyone with less than seven votes. We have one candidate at seven, Pete Browning. He needs to sweep the next five to eight votes, or can miss one if we have nine or more. Less than five votes, and he's cooked. Seeing as he had the support of only two of the seven from last election yet to vote in this one, his chances are pretty much purely mathematical.

                    At eight votes, we've got Lefty Gomez, Chuck Klein and Sam Rice. They need to sweep the vote if 4 or less ballots are cast (minimum of one), can miss one if 5 to 8 are cast, and can miss two if 9 or more are cast. Gomez enjoyed the support of four of the seven voters from last time yet to vote in this election, so he's got a chance, though not a good one. Neither of the other two had the support of more than two of those seven voters, so they are very much longshots.

                    The last player is Beckley with nine votes so far. He can miss one vote in the next four, 2 from 5 to 8, and three if 9 or more. He had the support of four of the seven voters from the last regular election yet to vote in this one. As usual, he has a shot, but the guess here is he once again falls short.

                    On the contributor side, we only have nine ballots so far. Only four candidates have at least five votes--and three of them have exactly five: Buck Canel, Jim Creighton, and Vic Harris. That means they need to sweep a minimum of seven votes to have a chance, and can't miss one unless we get 11. Their chances of doing so are quite slim. That leaves Dickey Pearce, who has nine of nine. If three or less votes are cast, he needs none, if 4 to 7 votes are cast, he can miss three, and if 8 or more are cast, he can miss 4. He's in excellent shape to be elected.
                    Last edited by jalbright; 10-25-2008, 05:48 AM.
                    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                    Comment


                    • It's again all about Beckley. I think Pearce and the foursome of Bonds/Biggio/Sosa/Clemens will be our electees from their respective categories. This leaves Jake as the only other viable candidate, and again, it's all about getting to 20 ballots. There are only five detractors here that aren't willing to vote for the guy, so he's a lock if we have 20 voters. I haven't done all of the number crunching, but I think there are enough people that have voted for him in recent elections to give him a fair shot. He only needs to go 12 for 16 if only four voters against cast ballots which is still probable given that Classic is MIA.
                      1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

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                      1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                      2013 2014


                      1996 2006

                      Comment


                      • A couple of things, Blue Blood:

                        1) You missed mentioning Piazza, who is 11 for 11 as I write;
                        2) Clemens, Bond and Sosa have to negotiate the PED minefield, and are by no means safe right now;
                        3) Classic didn't vote last election, so he's not shaping up as a change to the electorate if he doesn't vote this time.
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • 1) Slip of the mind.

                          2) I think the people that usually vote later are the type to be fine with PEDs. I'm sure Paul Wendt and AG2004 will put their support behind such players although nothing is guaranteed in life. I really don't like people voting for Clemens and not Bonds, for example. You're either on one side of the fence or not. Everyone has no excuse not to vote for Biggio/Piazza, they have suspected usage from Sosa, they have confirmation on Bonds/Clemens. But certainly, if you vote for Clemens, you've got to vote for Bonds as well.

                          A) They both lied about PEDs

                          B) They were both HOF-ers statistically before they began taking PEDs

                          C) Their stats are both dominant enough to make them easy Top 40 players in anyone's book, maybe even Top 30 depending on how highly one values Clemens. In other words, there's no way you can say one is over the hurdle and the other isn't from a statistics based point of view.
                          1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                          1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                          1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                          1966 1974 1977 1978


                          1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                          2013 2014


                          1996 2006

                          Comment


                          • There's only one voter so far who voted for Clemens and not Barry Bonds. No one has voted for Barry Bonds and not Clemens. So, in summary:

                            1) Eight have voted for both;
                            2) Two have voted against both;
                            3) One has voted for Clemens but not Barry Bonds.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                              3) One has voted for Clemens but not Barry Bonds.
                              I just checked all the ballots. Unless someone posted a secret ballot, no one has voted for Clemens but left Bonds off. Both Bonds and Clemens have nine votes out of 11.
                              Last edited by jjpm74; 10-25-2008, 08:44 PM.

                              Comment


                              • There was a voter that had pegged Clemens but not Bonds in their ballot. It must have been dgarza since his ballot has been edited.
                                1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988

                                1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
                                1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
                                1966 1974 1977 1978


                                1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
                                2013 2014


                                1996 2006

                                Comment

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