Baseball Fever Hall of Fame

[jalbright]

That vote (for Clemens but not Barry Bonds) is still there. Hint: the person voted for Bobby Bonds, and not Barry. Barry Bonds 8, Clemens 9 is the official count. If you wish to contact that person and inquire if it's an oversight, that's within the bounds of propriety. I will point out this individual voted for Bobby Bonds in previous elections.

[jalbright]

Mere hours to go before this project goes to sleep for a year.

[BlueBlood]

Had I called upon a few former Beckley voters, Jake might've been able to reach 12 of 16 and be elected since Paul Wendt never showed...ah well.

[jalbright]

The voting has now closed, and we elected four first timers on the Player ballot: Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, the first two with 100% of the votes. On the contributor side, we elected Dickey Pearce with 100% of the vote. We only had ten votes cast in that election, but he still had more than the required minimum of nine.

Note that there was a timely but last few days change to a ballot to add Barry Bonds.

[jalbright]

The player voting results, which are based on 13 ballots cast.

Biggio, Craig	13	100.0		Arlett, Buzz…..	1	7.7
Piazza, Mike	13	100.0		Bando, Sal………..	4	30.8
Bonds, Barry	11	84.6		Beckley, Jake……..	9	69.2
Clemens, Roger	11	84.6		Bender, Chief……..	4	30.8
Beckley, Jake……..	9	69.2		Berger, Wally……..	2	15.4
Sosa, Sammy	9	69.2		Biggio, Craig	13	100.0
Browning, Pete……	8	61.5		Bonds, Barry	11	84.6
Gomez, Lefty……..	8	61.5		Bonds, Bobby…….	4	30.8
Klein, Chuck……….	8	61.5		Bottomley, Jim…….	1	7.7
Rice, Sam…………..	8	61.5		Brown, Kevin	1	7.7
Joss, Addie………	7	53.8		Browning, Pete……	8	61.5
Martinez, Edgar……	6	46.2		Burns, George…….	1	7.7
Ochiai, Hiromitsu…..	6	46.2		Clarkson, Bus…….	1	7.7
Smith, Lee…………	6	46.2		Clemens, Roger	11	84.6
Stephens, Vern…..	6	46.2		Cravath, Gavvy……	2	15.4
Walters, Bucky……	6	46.2		Cuyler, Kiki…………	4	30.8
Welch, Mickey…….	6	46.2		Day, Leon………….	4	30.8
Evans, Dwight…….	5	38.5		Enatsu, Yutaka…..	4	30.8
Leach, Tommy……	5	38.5		Evans, Dwight…….	5	38.5
Palmeiro, Rafael…..	5	38.5		Franco, John……..	1	7.7
Rice, Jim…………..	5	38.5		Gomez, Lefty……..	8	61.5
Walker, Larry……..	5	38.5		Guidry, Ron	1	7.7
Bando, Sal………..	4	30.8		Johnson, Bob……..	2	15.4
Bender, Chief……..	4	30.8		Joss, Addie………	7	53.8
Bonds, Bobby…….	4	30.8		Keller, Charlie……..	3	23.1
Cuyler, Kiki…………	4	30.8		Klein, Chuck……….	8	61.5
Day, Leon………….	4	30.8		Koyama, Masaaki	2	15.4
Enatsu, Yutaka…..	4	30.8		Leach, Tommy……	5	38.5
Linares, Omar	4	30.8		Linares, Omar	4	30.8
Lombardi, Ernie……	4	30.8		Lombardi, Ernie……	4	30.8
Manush, Heinie……	4	30.8		Long, Herman……..	2	15.4
Pike,  Lip…………..	4	30.8		Lundy, Dick………..	3	23.1
Ryan, Jimmy……….	4	30.8		Manush, Heinie……	4	30.8
Sheckard, Jimmy….	4	30.8		Martinez, Edgar……	6	46.2
Keller, Charlie……..	3	23.1		Mathews, Bobby…	1	7.7
Lundy, Dick………..	3	23.1		McCormick, Jim……	2	15.4
Newcombe, Don….	3	23.1		Munson, Thurman..	1	7.7
Poles, Spotswood…	3	23.1		Nettles, Graig……..	2	15.4
Rizzuto, Phil………	3	23.1		Newcombe, Don….	3	23.1
Trouppe, Quincy….	3	23.1		Ochiai, Hiromitsu…..	6	46.2
Wynn, Jimmy………	3	23.1		Oliva, Tony………..	1	7.7
Berger, Wally……..	2	15.4		Oliver, Al…………..	2	15.4
Cravath, Gavvy……	2	15.4		Palmeiro, Rafael…..	5	38.5
Johnson, Bob……..	2	15.4		Pearce, Dickey…….	2	15.4
Koyama, Masaaki	2	15.4		Piazza, Mike	13	100.0
Long, Herman……..	2	15.4		Pierce, Billy	2	15.4
McCormick, Jim……	2	15.4		Pike,  Lip…………..	4	30.8
Nettles, Graig……..	2	15.4		Poles, Spotswood…	3	23.1
Oliver, Al…………..	2	15.4		Rice, Jim…………..	5	38.5
Pearce, Dickey…….	2	15.4		Rice, Sam…………..	8	61.5
Pierce, Billy	2	15.4		Rizzuto, Phil………	3	23.1
Rosen, Al………….	2	15.4		Rosen, Al………….	2	15.4
Arlett, Buzz…..	1	7.7		Ryan, Jimmy……….	4	30.8
Bottomley, Jim…….	1	7.7		Sheckard, Jimmy….	4	30.8
Brown, Kevin	1	7.7		Smith, Lee…………	6	46.2
Burns, George…….	1	7.7		Sosa, Sammy	9	69.2
Clarkson, Bus…….	1	7.7		Staub, Rusty………	1	7.7
Franco, John……..	1	7.7		Stephens, Vern…..	6	46.2
Guidry, Ron	1	7.7		Trouppe, Quincy….	3	23.1
Mathews, Bobby…	1	7.7		Walker, Larry……..	5	38.5
Munson, Thurman..	1	7.7		Walters, Bucky……	6	46.2
Oliva, Tony………..	1	7.7		Welch, Mickey…….	6	46.2
Staub, Rusty………	1	7.7		Wells, David	1	7.7
Wells, David	1	7.7		Wynn, Jimmy………	3	23.1

[jalbright]

The contributor ballot results. We only had 10 votes cast, but in that case the minimum of nine to induct applies.

Pearce, Dickey	10	100		Abe, Iso	1	10
Canel, Buck	6	60		Barlick, Al	1	10
Creighton, Jim	6	60		Buck, Jack	1	10
Harris, Vic	6	60		Cambria, Joe	1	10
Shoriki, Matsutaro	5	50		Canel, Buck	6	60
Caray, Harry	4	40		Caray, Harry	4	40
Martin, Billy	4	40		Chandler, Happy	2	20
Frick, Ford	3	30		Chylak, Nestor	1	10
Hubbard, Cal	3	30		Conlan, Jocko	1	10
Jobe, Frank	3	30		Creighton, Jim	6	60
Lardner, Ring	3	30		Davids, Bob	2	20
Mizuhara, Shigeru	3	30		Evans, Billy	1	10
Reach, A.J.	3	30		Flood, Curt	2	20
Steinbrenner, George	3	30		Foster, John B.	1	10
Chandler, Happy	2	20		Frick, Ford	3	30
Davids, Bob	2	20		Greenlee, Gus	1	10
Flood, Curt	2	20		Grimm, Charlie	1	10
Krichell, Paul	2	20		Harris, Vic	6	60
Ramirez, Felo	2	20		Hubbard, Cal	3	30
Abe, Iso	1	10		Jobe, Frank	3	30
Barlick, Al	1	10		Johnson, Davey	1	10
Buck, Jack	1	10		Krichell, Paul	2	20
Cambria, Joe	1	10		Lardner, Ring	3	30
Chylak, Nestor	1	10		Martin, Billy	4	40
Conlan, Jocko	1	10		McGowan, Bill	1	10
Evans, Billy	1	10		Mills, AG	1	10
Foster, John B.	1	10		Mizuhara, Shigeru	3	30
Greenlee, Gus	1	10		Mutrie, Jim	1	10
Grimm, Charlie	1	10		Nehf, David	1	10
Johnson, Davey	1	10		Okrent, Dan	1	10
McGowan, Bill	1	10		Osborn, Frank	1	10
Mills, AG	1	10		Pearce, Dickey	10	100
Mutrie, Jim	1	10		Pompez, Alejandro	1	10
Nehf, David	1	10		Ramirez, Felo	2	20
Okrent, Dan	1	10		Reach, A.J.	3	30
Osborn, Frank	1	10		Rice, Grantland	1	10
Pompez, Alejandro	1	10		Shibe, Ben	1	10
Rice, Grantland	1	10		Shoriki, Matsutaro	5	50
Shibe, Ben	1	10		Smith, Red	1	10
Smith, Red	1	10		Steinbrenner, George	3	30
Tyson, Ty	1	10		Tyson, Ty	1	10
White, Sol	1	10		White, Sol	1	10
Wilson, Horace	1	10		Wilson, Horace	1	10

[jalbright]

Some links we may want later:

my 2008 contributor voting guide


the 2008 annual election voting guide, which has in it:
post 2 the rules for the project
post 3 a list of inductees (contributor and player) by category
post 4 an alphabetical listing of contributors and a separate alphabetical listing of players

[Paul Wendt]

congratulations, Dickey Pearce

Had I called upon a few former Beckley voters, Jake might've been able to reach 12 of 16 and be elected since Paul Wendt never showed...ah well.

How many times did Jim Albright write that the only thing you ever know for sure around here is "You never know"?

I have a new research job since late September, not 9-5:00 but as the **** flows. There was a big delivery of data Friday morning and I forgot about the BBFHOF although I may have visited the forum as a zombie that afternoon.

It's a relief to see that my vote would not have elected anyone. I would have voted for the maximum number of contributor candidates but only two of the six-pack that scored 4-6 votes.

Buck Canel and M. Shoriki - yes
V. Harris and J. Creighton - maybe, if I read the other ballots
H. Caray and B. Martin - not convinceable

Here are seven definitelys and probablys who picked up 1-3 votes, just in case anyone is plotting for next year.

Reach, A.J.
Davids, Bob
Ramirez, Felo
Nehf, David - - alert, that is David Neft
Osborn, Frank
Shibe, Ben
White, Sol

With Pearce that is 12 defs and probs.

Frank Bancroft
Al Spink
Danny Murtaugh?

Classic's ballot and discussion would have reminded and re-motivated me; in late summer I was quite interested in this contributor election. There was more time then. ;-)

[bambambaseball]

Sol White is confusing. Is he in the hall because of his playing career or was it because of the books he published? If so, why is he there but Bill James isnt

[J W]

People haven't quite warmed up to Bill James yet. :cap:

Seriously, I think he'll get in one day -- like maybe 20 years in the future. If, granted, Cooperstown and/or the United States are still around.

[AG2004]

James is active and not yet 65, so he is not eligible for Cooperstown. He was elected to our BBFHOF as a contributor when Classic was permitting people under the age of 60 to be eligible for election on a case-by-case basis.

-----

Incidentally, had the past election been a regular monthly election, with no newly eligible players added, nobody would have been elected. Only a handful of players could have reached ten votes had they been added to all possible "full" ballots by people who had voted for Keith Hernandez in the previous election. Since they would have needed my vote to reach ten, and since I didn't see them as ballot worthy, they wouldn't have made it.

If the rules stated in post 340 had been in effect, the monthly votes would have come to an end as a result, and the project would have gone to annual votes. So the project is going to annual votes at just the right time.

I think we've done a much better job of honoring players than Cooperstown has. There have been inductees I that I disagreed with, but most of those were close to the borderline, and they aren't glaring errors like George Kelly or Rube Marquard.

-----

It must have been frustrating for supporters of Beckley, Browning, Gomez, Klein, and Sam Rice to see those candidates hover above the 50% line for months and months without getting into the BBFHOF. I think we can divide most of the voters into two basic camps: those who use traditionalist criteria for evaluating players and those who use more detailed or modern analyses, with the former being larger. There are many candidates who received a high level of support from one camp and very little from the other; Walker, Cuyler, Keller, and Trouppe come to mind. (There are a few voters who don't fit well with either camp, but they are the exceptions.)

I think we've reached the point where all the candidates who could gain crossover support from both camps have gotten into the BBFHOF. If we were to induct all the players who received at least 50% of the vote, we would, in my opinion, more than double the number of big-time mistakes in our Hall. I can't see how they would get sufficient support from the "analysts" to cross over the 3/4 threshhold. Likewise, many favorites of the analytical crowd are completely baffling to the "traditionalists" -- one such voter asked me how Sal Bando could be a Hall of Famer.

If we were to continue the elections, we wouldn't be able to elect anybody in the near future, and we would be stuck with endless arguments about Jake Beckley. At this point, we all know both sides' cases; without any new information, these arguments would generate much heat, but very little light. It would be a headache for all concerned.

That reminds me of a question that's been in my mind for a while. Is there any chance that Sockeye might ever return? It's hard to believe, but I miss his Lewis Carroll-like commentary.

[BlueBlood]

Had Sockeye not persisted in obstructing the other HOF project, he'd have helped push Beckley past the threshold. Jake missed election plenty of times by one measly ballot. I still contend that he's the only player from before this annual election that we could eventually elect. In fact, had I PM'd a single former voter of his and urged them to post in the thread, he'd have made it this last time.

[Paul Wendt]

It's probable that I would have posted a ballot sometime before Friday morning when we suffered arrival of a big dataset and then conference call about it.
--if this had been a regular triweekly, without the misguided but easy to understand psychological hurdle that I really should make up my mind about the contributors too.
But I would not have made time for a close look at Rusty Staub, and other modern hangers such as Tony Perez, and without that consideration there is no way I would have revised to vote in favor of Beckley.

Incidentally, had the past election been a regular monthly election, with no newly eligible players added, nobody would have been elected. Only a handful of players could have reached ten votes had they been added to all possible "full" ballots by people who had voted for Keith Hernandez in the previous election. Since they would have needed my vote to reach ten, and since I didn't see them as ballot worthy, they wouldn't have made it.

That depends on promotion such as BlueBloods PM to past Beckley voters. In particular if Classic were here and the final regular election were anticipated it's plausible to me that he would have contacted past voters from some list. He does have a long friends list here, and I understand that he started the BBFHOF years ago. Maybe he would have alerted former voters en masse. (eg, Thank you for part in the BBFHOF project. The final regular election may be underway. . . .)

So the bottom line again is "You never know."

[Paul Wendt]

Sol White

Sol White is confusing. Is he in the hall because of his playing career or was it because of the books he published? If so, why is he there but Bill James isnt

Certainly not primarily for his playing career. He was a very good player, maybe hall of fame quality, and he was one black man who played in several organized baseball leagues while the color line was drawn.

I suppose that his work as organizer/partner/player-manager of the Philadelphia Giants 1902-1909? is the cornerstone of his support for election.

The History and other writings (1907 Guide and newsppr/mag articles) can only help but I can't imagine they do more than support people looking favorably on the Phi Giants and on his preceding peripatetic playing career.

[bambambaseball]

Thanks. Im trying to get a better handle on him.