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  • Taking another tack

    The Hall of Mistakes/Hall of Corrections project which concluded earlier this year showed 34 players that BBFers thought should replace those that went into the Hall at Cooperstown. This is the post from that recap:
    originally posted by Freakshow
    My two companion projects, the Hall of Mistakes and the Hall of Corrections, are now complete. The first was a series of elections to identify the bottom 15% players in the Hall of Fame (34 guys); then another series of elections to identify who should be in the HOF instead. Here are the two lists in order of election:

    Code:
    POS	Corrections	BBFHOF	1800s	POS	Mistakes
    3B	Ron Santo	*		3B	Fred Lindstrom
    P	Bert Blyleven	*		1B	George Kelly
    1B	Dick Allen	*		RF	Tommy McCarthy
    LF	Minnie Minoso	*		P	Rube Marquard 
    RP	Rich Gossage	*		P	Jesse Haines
    LF	Sherry Magee	*		CF	Lloyd Waner
    SS	Bill Dahlen	*	x	SS	Travis Jackson
    SS	Alan Trammell	*		C	Rick Ferrell
    2B	Bobby Grich	*		RF	Ross Youngs
    C	Ted Simmons	*		P	Chief Bender
    2B	Joe Gordon	*		LF	Chick Hafey
    LF	Albert Belle			P	Herb Pennock
    CF	Dale Murphy	*		CF	Earle Combs
    1B	Keith Hernandez			P	Jack Chesbro
    RF	Andre Dawson	*		P	Waite Hoyt
    C	Joe Torre	*		SS	Joe Tinker
    CF	Paul Hines	*	x	C	Ray Schalk
    3B	Darrell Evans			3B	Judy Johnson
    P	Wes Ferrell			2B	Red Schoendienst
    C	Deacon White	*	x	1B	Jim Bottomley
    C	Bill Freehan			3B	George Kell
    3B	Stan Hack	*		P	Vic Willis
    2B	Lou Whitaker			RF	Harry Hooper
    CF	Pete Browning		x	LF	Heinie Manush
    CF	Jimmy Wynn			SS	Dave Bancroft
    LF	Harry Stovey	*	x	2B	Johnny Evers
    RF	Dwight Evans			SS	Phil Rizzuto
    SS	John Beckwith			2B	Bill Mazeroski
    3B	Ken Boyer			P	Andy Cooper
    CF	George Gore		x	RF	Kiki Cuyler
    SS	Homerun Johnson			P	Catfish Hunter
    RF	Dave Parker			RF	Sam Rice
    C	Charlie Bennett		x	RP	Rollie Fingers
    CF	G. Van Haltren		x	2B	Tony Lazzeri

    Seventeen of the 34 Corrections are among the 180 players in the BBFHOF. In addition, Torre was elected to the Contributors wing. None of the 34 Mistakes are in the BBFHOF.

    Eight of the Corrections played primarily in the 19th century; only one of the Mistakes did. Clearly, the HOF has work to do there. (The Hall of Merit at Baseballthinkfactory.com has elected 15 19th century stars not in the Coop.)

    The results show the HOF with an excess of pitchers. Ten are identified as Mistakes, with only three elected as Corrections.

    Comparing the last few players on each list, it is clear to me that there is a discernable superiority for the Corrections guys. For instance, outfielders Parker and Van Haltren impress me much more than HOFers Lazzeri and S. Rice. IMO, you need to get beyond 20% (45 players) before the players in the Hall begin to match the quality of those not in the Hall.

    Here are 25-man teams constructed by starting at the top of each list and swapping players at the same position. (I diverted from this plan at the end, swapping four Mistake Pitcher for four Correction position players.)

    Code:
    3B	Ron Santo	1	3B	Fred Lindstrom
    1B	Dick Allen	2	1B	George Kelly
    P	Bert Blyleven	3	P	Rube Marquard 
    LF	Minnie Minoso	4	LF	Chick Hafey
    RP	Rich Gossage	5	RP	Rollie Fingers
    SS	Bill Dahlen	6	SS	Travis Jackson
    CF	Dale Murphy	7	CF	Lloyd Waner
    C	Ted Simmons	8	C	Rick Ferrell
    RF	Andre Dawson	9	RF	Tommy McCarthy
    [U]2B	Joe Gordon	10	2B	Red Schoendienst[/U]
    P	Wes Ferrell	11	P	Jesse Haines
    SS	Alan Trammell	12	SS	Joe Tinker
    CF	Paul Hines	13	CF	Earle Combs
    C	Joe Torre	14	C	Ray Schalk
    3B	Darrell Evans	15	3B	Judy Johnson
    1B	Keith Hernandez	16	1B	Jim Bottomley
    3B	Stan Hack	17	3B	George Kell
    LF	Sherry Magee	18	LF	Heinie Manush
    2B	Bobby Grich	19	2B	Johnny Evers
    [U]RF	Dwight Evans	20	RF	Ross Youngs[/U]
    SS	John Beckwith	21	SS	Phil Rizzuto
    LF	Albert Belle	22	P	Chief Bender
    C	Deacon White	23	P	Herb Pennock
    C	Bill Freehan	24	P	Jack Chesbro
    2B	Lou Whitaker	25	P	Waite Hoyt

    Quite a mismatch.

    Darrell and Dewey Evans, Keith Hernandez, Wes Ferrell, John Beckwith, Lou Whitaker and Bill Freehan are still not elected to BBF’s Hall; only Rollie Fingers from the side that got “kicked out” has any real support here.
    (editing this post with this noticed by Freakshow
    Others from the Corrections list that BBF voters should consider are Pete Browning, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, George Gore, Homerun Johnson, Dave Parker, Charlie Bennett and George Van Haltren.
    Any other comments?
    Last edited by 2Chance; 09-20-2006, 01:15 AM.
    "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
    --Bob Feller

    Comment


    • Six of your contributors who are members at Cooperstown but not here are umpires.There seems to be considerable resistance here to electing any more umpires, so I don't anticipate we will ever reach the number of umps that are in at Cooperstown. We have elected only one umpire; I for one would prefer to see a couple more, at least, but I don't perceive that happening.

      We have elected a large number of managers. Cooperstown has elected 16; we have 20 to date, so are well ahead of Cooperstown. I don't know if that's good or bad, just an observation.
      You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 2Chance
        The Hall of Mistakes/Hall of Corrections project which concluded earlier this year showed 25 players that BBFers thought should be in on the left and out on the right:
        Code:
        3B	Ron Santo		1		3B	Fred Lindstrom
        1B	Dick Allen		2		1B	George Kelly
        P	Bert Blyleven		3		P	Rube Marquard 
        LF	Minnie Minoso		4		LF	Chick Hafey
        RP	Rich Gossage		5		RP	Rollie Fingers
        SS	Bill Dahlen		6		SS	Travis Jackson
        CF	Dale Murphy		7		CF	Lloyd Waner
        C	Ted Simmons		8		C	Rick Ferrell
        RF	Andre Dawson		9		RF	Tommy McCarthy
        2B	Joe Gordon		10		2B	Red Schoendienst
        P	Wes Ferrell		11		P	Jesse Haines
        SS	Alan Trammell		12		SS	Joe Tinker
        CF	Paul Hines		13		CF	Earle Combs
        C	Joe Torre		14		C	Ray Schalk
        3B	Darrell Evans		15		3B	Judy Johnson
        1B	Keith Hernandez		16		1B	Jim Bottomley
        3B	Stan Hack		17		3B	George Kell
        LF	Sherry Magee		18		LF	Heinie Manush
        2B	Bobby Grich		19		2B	Johnny Evers
        RF	Dwight Evans		20		RF	Ross Youngs
        SS	John Beckwith		21		SS	Phil Rizzuto
        LF	Albert Belle		22		P	Chief Bender
        C	Deacon White		23		P	Herb Pennock
        C	Bill Freehan		24		P	Jack Chesbro
        2B	Lou Whitaker		25		P	Waite Hoyt
        Darrell and Dewey Evans, Keith Hernandez, Wes Ferrell, John Beckwith, Lou Whitaker and Bill Freehan are still not elected to BBF’s Hall; only Rollie Fingers from the side that got “kicked out” has any real support here. Any other comments?
        Click on the link you provided and you'll see that the full lists had 34 players each. Others from the Corrections list that BBF voters should consider are Pete Browning, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, George Gore, Homerun Johnson, Dave Parker, Charlie Bennett and George Van Haltren.
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 2Chance
          So far we have elected 15 Players that have no plaque in Cooperstown:
          Blyleven, Dawson, Grich, Rickey Henderson, Paul Hines, Kaneda, McGwire, Nagashima, Nomura, Oh, Santo, Ted Simmons, Stovey, Trammell and Deacon White.

          Cooperstown has plaques for these 59 players who we have omitted:
          Code:
          Luis Aparicio	Elmer Flick	Jose Mendez
          Dave Bancroft	Lefty Gomez	Herb Pennock
          Chief Bender	Frank Grant	Tony Perez
          Jim Bottomley	Burleigh Grimes	Alex Pompez
          Roger Bresnahan	Pete Hill	Sam Rice
          Willard Brown	Harry Hooper	Eppa Rixey
          Jim Bunning	Waite Hoyt	Phil Rizzuto
          Max Carey	Catfish Hunter	Edd Roush
          Orlando Cepeda	Travis Jackson	Red Ruffing
          Jack Chesbro	Judy Johnson	Ray Schalk
          Earle Combs	Addie Joss	Red Schoendienst
          Andy Cooper	Chuck Klein	Joe Sewell
          Candy Cummings	Tony Lazzeri	Hilton Smith
          Kiki Cuyler	Fred Lindstrom	Ben Taylor
          Leon Day	Heinie Manush	Joe Tinker
          Bobby Doerr	Rabbit Maranville	Lloyd Waner
          Johnny Evers	Rube Marquard	Vic Willis
          Red Faber	Bill Mazeroski	Hack Wilson
          Rick Ferrell	Tommy McCarthy	Ross Youngs
          Rollie Fingers	Bid McPhee
          So, how are we doin'? I assume it's better than them, but is there anyone on this list who really sticks out to you? How about ours...have we put anybody in who doesn't measure up to the previously defined immortals?

          Keep in mind that we are ahead of the curve, so to speak, with some of our inductees due to the BBWAA's annual instead of monthly meetings and the five year wait that they must abide by. Also, some of the ones we are "missing" are near election. (Anybody want to use this as a springboard to endorse a favorite candidate?)
          I think Pompez belongs in the contributor category.
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • originally posted by Freakshow
            Click on the link you provided and you'll see that the full lists had 34 players each. Others from the Corrections list that BBF voters should consider are Pete Browning, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, George Gore, Homerun Johnson, Dave Parker, Charlie Bennett and George Van Haltren.

            Good point. That are fixed on the original, as well as the player/contributor status of Alex Pompez in Cooperstown.

            Some of these guys are enjoying decent support (some of it vocal, some not), and some are not.
            Last edited by 2Chance; 09-20-2006, 01:20 AM.
            "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
            --Bob Feller

            Comment


            • To me the one who stands out on the players in the Coop but not in our HOF is Bid McPhee. I would also support Bresnahan, Willard Brown, Carey, Cepeda, Faber, Mendez, and Perez. Other than those guys, I could see legit cases for some other ones but I probalby will never vote for them.

              Comment


              • The biggest omission I see so far is John Beckwith, the temperamental infielder who could hit and slug with the best.

                I think McPhee gets left off because his bat was good but not great. However, he was solid, the best 2B for most of the 19th century. (Imagine Bill Mazeroski in the 1800s, not wearing a glove.) Comps do not include Maz, but they do include:
                Bill Dahlen (855)
                Herman Long (836)
                Willie Randolph (831)
                Tommy Leach (829)
                Bobby Wallace (819) *
                Tommy Corcoran (811)
                John Ward (809) *
                George Davis (805) *
                Pee Wee Reese (801) *
                Jimmy Sheckard (791)
                That's four HOFers and some who get support for it.
                from baseballcrank.com
                McPhee was a good, not a great, hitter, over a long period of years. Typical of his day, McPhee was speedy but with limited power, although his 53 career home runs were quite a respectable total. He stole a ton of bases, although stolen bases were counted differently then. He drew a fair number of walks starting with 59 in 1886, when the number of balls for a walk was seven. His career batting average of .271 looks weak when one thinks of the high-octane 1890s, but the league average in the AA was often very low, bottoming out at .238 in 1888, and McPhee's on-base percentages were routinely 20-30 points above the league, very good for a middle infielder.

                McPhee’s most impressive credential is his 1,678 runs scored, 23nd the all-time list; McPhee scored 28 more runs than Joe Morgan, 174 more runs than Lajoie. The runs scored total should be taken with a grain of salt, as with Barnes: in an era when the league fielding percentage hovered around .900 and about two-thirds of all runs were unearned, players scored a lot. Still, McPhee scored 155 more runs than Big Dan Brouthers, the dominant hitter of McPhee’s era, and just 12 fewer than Sliding Billy Hamilton, the greatest leadoff man of the century.

                On a year-in-year-out basis, though, McPhee was only occasionally among the league leaders in any batting category, despite mostly playing in a good hitters’ park. He led the league in games, triples, and homers (with 8) once each, and on two occasions was in the top five in runs, once in steals. There always seemed to be a better hitter in the league at his position; the STATS All-Time Sourcebook does an annual retroactive All-Star team based largely on batting stats, and McPhee is always ranked behind people like Sam Barkley, Yank Robinson and Cupid Childs.

                For his career, the Runs Created/27 Outs method, used in the STATS, Inc. books, estimates that McPhee was 17.8% better than the league average hitter for the balance of his career (before adjusting for his park). Not counting Rod Carew, who I regard as a first baseman, that puts him 11th among the 13 Hall of Fame second basemen, ahead of only Red Schoendeinst (who ,s in partly as a manager) and Nellie Fox.

                On the basis of his bat, McPhee falls a little ahead of Perez (by the standards of his position) in the category of good, long-time hitters who don’t quite have what Cooperstown requires. Oh, but his glove. McPhee was a legendary glove man, or rather, hand man; he was one of the last men to play the field barehanded, resisting the widespread adoption of gloves in the late 1880s. The numbers back up his reputation: McPhee led his league in double plays his first nine straight seasons, and 11 times in 12 years. He led in putouts 8 times, assists 6 times, fielding percentage 7 times, and range factor (then an unknown measurement) 8 times. When he switched to a glove in 1896, his fielding percentage jumped 23 points, setting a record that would stand for 25 years.
                . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
                But somebody has to be the best at the position over so many years, and while McPhee was not a great hitter, he was good enough, like Ozzie Smith or Dave Bancroft; he was never a liability like Rabbit Maranville. And McPhee’s defense was truly exceptional. In an era when walks and extra base hits were rare and errors and aggressive baserunning were common, infield defense meant more than it does today; McPhee was clearly the best in the business, and for a very long time.
                "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
                --Bob Feller

                Comment


                • I hope this is relatively moot once this month's results are final (Monday, the 25th), but I'm going to put this out now. We didn't elect any players last month. With the upheaval we had, I can understand that. This month, it's a real crapshoot as to whether or nor we'll elect any players.

                  The more I think about this, the more I've been persuaded that if we repeatedly refuse to elect anyone, that's a sure sign the project has just about run its course. That being the case, I'm announcing my intention that if, in any four month period, we fail to elect any player in three of those months, we'll go to quarterly elections at first, and yearly if that doesn't produce results. One exception would be if the first month off would be November, when we've traditionally opened the doors to those players who retired before the just finished season.

                  I'm focusing on players, because a) we've matched the contributor total of Cooperstown, and b) I think the main attraction always has been the player portion of the ballot.

                  Of course, you could help if you didn't vote for the guys with a chance this month, most notably George Wright and Max Carey (the co-leaders as I write) or Bobby Doerr (1 vote behind them) by taking somebody with less chance of being elected this month off your ballot and inserting one or more of these guys.

                  Jim Albright
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • It would be easy to introduce modifications to keep the project going. In months where nobody is elected we could:

                    1) Have a runoff election. Infinite schemes are possible here, but I'm thinking of something like this: Take the top 25 finishers. Have each voter rank their top ten in order, from among those 25. The top guy is elected. Allow ten days for this election, open only to voters who've cast a ballot in the past year.

                    2) An easier method. On each 25-man ballot, have voters indicate their top five for election. If nobody gets 75% in a month, add the number of these top 5 "bonus points" to the initial vote total. The top guy is elected.
                    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                    Comment


                    • I`m surprised at the lack of support for Kevin Brown.

                      His career FIP is 3.52, his career high is 2.29. Over a 3 year period he posted FIP's of 2.91, 3.03 and 2.29.

                      If you don`t believe in DIPS then here's his ERA's which make him look even better. His career ERA is 3.28, his lowest was '96 with 1.89. His best 3 consecutive years were 1.89, 2.69 and 2.38.

                      He was the ultimate GB pitcher and posted a 68% GB% one year so FIP actually underrates him. He was the rare pitcher who could simultaneously get GB's through sinkers and also cut down batter with a wicked slider. His FIP sank below 3.00 3 times and his ERA did that 6 times. His FIP went below 3.50 8 times and his ERA went below that mark 9 times. This is al in an extreme hitters era. He had a career 6.39 K/9 his BB/9 was a mere 2.49. Remembering of course this all happened in an extreme hitters era and that he was an extreme GB pitcher. His cons were that he was oft injured and a "clubhouse cancer." That can be said about Rogers Hornsby and Joe DiMaggio. Think about this.
                      2009 World Series Champions, The New York Yankees

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rickey_Henderson
                        I`m surprised at the lack of support for Kevin Brown.

                        His career FIP is 3.52, his career high is 2.29. Over a 3 year period he posted FIP's of 2.91, 3.03 and 2.29.

                        If you don`t believe in DIPS then here's his ERA's which make him look even better. His career ERA is 3.28, his lowest was '96 with 1.89. His best 3 consecutive years were 1.89, 2.69 and 2.38.

                        He was the ultimate GB pitcher and posted a 68% GB% one year so FIP actually underrates him. He was the rare pitcher who could simultaneously get GB's through sinkers and also cut down batter with a wicked slider. His FIP sank below 3.00 3 times and his ERA did that 6 times. His FIP went below 3.50 8 times and his ERA went below that mark 9 times. This is al in an extreme hitters era. He had a career 6.39 K/9 his BB/9 was a mere 2.49. Remembering of course this all happened in an extreme hitters era and that he was an extreme GB pitcher. His cons were that he was oft injured and a "clubhouse cancer." That can be said about Rogers Hornsby and Joe DiMaggio. Think about this.
                        I don't believe Brown is eligible yet for this project.
                        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                        Comment


                        • Doesn't Nov. open up for a lot of newly eligible players, such as Kevin Brown?
                          Who else falls into this class?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by dgarza
                            Doesn't Nov. open up for a lot of newly eligible players, such as Kevin Brown?
                            Who else falls into this class?
                            Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro.
                            Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                            Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                            Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                            Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                            Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                            Comment


                            • Kevin Brown, Sosa, Larry Walker and Palmiero stand to be eligible in November. If anyone has other names to add to the list, I'd love to hear them.

                              Originally posted by Freakshow
                              It would be easy to introduce modifications to keep the project going. In months where nobody is elected we could:

                              1) Have a runoff election. Infinite schemes are possible here, but I'm thinking of something like this: Take the top 25 finishers. Have each voter rank their top ten in order, from among those 25. The top guy is elected. Allow ten days for this election, open only to voters who've cast a ballot in the past year.

                              2) An easier method. On each 25-man ballot, have voters indicate their top five for election. If nobody gets 75% in a month, add the number of these top 5 "bonus points" to the initial vote total. The top guy is elected.
                              Those modifications would be possible, but I am adamant that I will not be the one to administer what I view as a watering down of the standards of this project. It is my understanding similar ideas were proposed early on, and they were rejected. I think we stay with this system as is. If this one fails, I'd be open to participating in a new project based on such ideas (actually, a point system ranking the candidates and a guaranteed number of electees a la BBTF's Hall of Merit seem best to me), but this project should remain true to the concept it started with.

                              I've alluded to it before, but come January, it may prove impossible for me to continue to lead the project anyway, though I'll try. Any of the proposals of different approaches involve more work for the individual(s) who administer the project. I'm not sure I will be able to handle the load as it is currently structured, much less a system involving more work. I would be loathe to agree to changes which would then be foisted off on the new administrator(s).

                              Jim Albright
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jalbright
                                Kevin Brown, Sosa, Larry Walker and Palmiero stand to be eligible in November. If anyone has other names to add to the list, I'd love to hear them.
                                John Olerud, Benito Santiago & John Franco... and to a much lesser extent Marquis Grissom, Tino Martinez and B.J. Surhoff
                                "Hitting is better than sex." - Reggie Jackson, Esquire (March 1, 1978)

                                Comment

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