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  • #31
    Regarding Jack Dunn

    There is a neat little summary of Dunn's career in Baseball: The Biographical Encyclopedia, but the best - and most comprehensive - portrait of Dunn I have run across is in Neil J. Sullivan's The Minors.

    Dunn operated an indepedently run franchise that was the model of what minor league teams "could have been." The International League, which the Orioles dominated throughout Dunn's tenure, was the strongest of the minor leagues during these years.

    As a scout and talent evaluator, Dunn "showed persistence and thoroughness in being able to find such a player [as Ruth] in such an obscure place."

    "Dunn's eye for talent was matched by a fierce determination to win, insistence of discipline, and generous rewards for the players who met his standards."

    "Jack Dunn was a very serious businessman who made his living from the sport of baseball and who profited by extending opportunity to talented young men. Dunn was no wealthy sportsman pursuing a hobby; nor was he an idle figurehead who awaited profits while subordinates did the work. He knew the business of baseball as a player, manager, and owner. He knew what was required to be successful, including the risks that had to be assumed. Unlike other minor league owners who were content to be wards of the majors, Dunn trusted his own abilities and work ethic."

    "In a league of teams that were independent franchises, Dunn had no peer. He repeatedly discovered talent from sandlots to reform schools to colleges. Few other baseball executives worked as hard or as successfully as Dunn."

    Sullivan notes that Baltimore crushed good competition in exhibitions with major league teams and in season play with many high-quality IL teams. Connie Mack is said to have trusted Dunn's baseball judgement explicitly. McGraw also had confidence in Dunn's ability to find good players; both he and Mack negotiated with Dunn on a regular basis, seeking to purchase players from him.

    Dunn and Branch Rickey were practically separated at birth, according to Sullivan, who writes that both were "talented and tireless scouts who found great players at the very beginning of their careers." Unfortunately for the minor leagues, Rickey's genius continued to work towards their enslavement after Dunn's heart attack in 1928 put a sudden end to his efforts to save them.

    Dunn's Orioles were a team that was the equal (or better) of most major league clubs of its day, run as a one-man operation, by a bright and energetic baseball man who, through intelligence and hard work created an enormously successful dynasty. That this is a "minor league" club is more a designation giving it in a sweeping endictment by the self-appointed "major" leagues as opposed to an actual statement on the excellence of the organization or quality of the teams it fielded.

    Jack Dunn is a man who's success in and influence on the game of baseball is on par with men like McGraw, Mack and Rickey. He merits inclusion with them here.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

    Comment


    • #32
      Thank you. Dunn's not in this month, and we'll see when I have an opening in the contributor portion of the ballot, but he'll get some consideration at that time.

      Jim Albright
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #33
        I'm tracking Lou Boudreau, Willie Foster, Bobby Grich, Stan Hack, Bob Lemon, Ted Lyons, Shigeo Nagashima, Enos Slaughter, and Jud Wilson among the players, and among the contributors C. I. Taylor and Tetsuharu Kawakami.

        Grich and Slaughter are out of the running unless new votes revive their chances. We've had 18 votes already, and only 8 who voted last month have yet to vote. The biggest "x factor" this month seems likely to be in terms of new voters rather than what we've had in the last few months, which is who would fail to cast a vote.

        At this point, any player who doesn't already have 13 votes and any contributor with less than 11 votes has little or no chance. If you can point to someone not in my list who has at least as many votes as set out in the two categories, I'll consider tracking them for the rest of the month. If they have only the minimum, I'm not as anxious to do it, as they'll nearly have to run the table to make it unless new votes boost them. If they have more than the minimum, I'm likely to accomodate you.

        The Players

        Boudreau already has two insurance votes and is just about a lock to make it.

        There are four guys precisely on a pace to make it, but absent new votes, they're strong favorites to make it since we already have so many votes cast and these guys have enough support left to give them a margin of error in terms of votes not cast. They are: Willie Foster, Bob Lemon, Shigeo Nagashima and Jud Wilson.

        Hack and Lyons have to run the table absent new votes, and therefore are longshots at best for this month.

        The Contributors

        C. I. Taylor has climbed to within one vote of election, but has only two chances to get that elusive vote. He's a slight favorite to make it, but hardly a lock.

        Kawakami is on a pace to fall three votes short of election and has four chances to get those votes. He's definitely a long shot this month.

        Jim Albright
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Dudecar00
          Gomez
          -There's been seven players in 20th+ century MLB history that have tossed two or more triple crowns.

          Five of them are in our HOF
          -Lefty Grove
          -Sandy Koufax
          -Walter Johnson
          -Christy Mathewson
          -Grover Cleveland Alexander

          One of them is not "retired" yet:
          -Roger Clemens

          That leaves one pitcher, the sorely underrated because he was overrated:
          Lefty Gomez

          Yes, his career was short. Yes, he pitched for the Yankees. But the fact remains he was second most dominant pitcher in the AL during the 1930's, and his name is up there with five pitchers who were elected so long ago, I don't remember what month they were elected in. It's about time he was elected.
          Five of the retired guys added a long body of excellence to their two "Triple Crowns" and thus aren't good comparisons. The same applies to Clemens. The only really comparable guy in terms of career length in that group is Koufax--and you're going to have one heck of a time convincing too many folks here that Gomez was in Sandy's class at his peak. As for Gomez' placement among pitchers in the 1930's, the Win Shares book lists him behind Grove, Hubbell, Ruffing, Wes Ferrell, Mel Harder, Dizzy Dean and Larry French in total win shares for the decade, so that point is at least debatable. I'll just say I've yet to be convinced he's worth my vote, but at least you raised an interesting argument.

          Jim Albright
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by jalbright
            At this point, any player who doesn't already have 13 votes and any contributor with less than 11 votes has little or no chance. If you can point to someone not in my list who has at least as many votes as set out in the two categories, I'll consider tracking them for the rest of the month. If they have only the minimum, I'm not as anxious to do it, as they'll nearly have to run the table to make it unless new votes boost them. If they have more than the minimum, I'm likely to accomodate you.
            Mickey Welch and Albert Belle both have 13 votes at this point. I think they are well worth tracking. Their support has been similar or better in the last 4-6 months than many of the players you are currently tracking.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by dgarza
              Mickey Welch and Albert Belle both have 13 votes at this point. I think they are well worth tracking. Their support has been similar or better in the last 4-6 months than many of the players you are currently tracking.
              Since they'll have to virtually run the table (they're at 13-5 at that rate, and they've got to make 20-6 if everybody who voted last month votes), that's a circumstance I'm not terribly interested in doing the work for. If they can move it significantly closer than that, I'll reconsider. You can track them yourself by looking at who among the 8 outstanding voters voted for them last month and those who didn't. If you want the list of those 8 voters, PM me, and I'll provide it to you.

              Jim Albright
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #37
                I'm a little disturbed that Enos Slaughter just can't seem to make any progress the last few months. I've already made my argument for him individually here: http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=148 To that post, I can add that despite spending three seasons in military service in the 1940's, he's got the 15th most win shares of the decade. If everyone was allowed to fill in their service time, he'd surely move up at least 8 spots because those guys spent less time in the service.

                Another point is we recently elected Kirby Puckett. I'm not going to slam that selection, but if Kirby belongs in, so does Slaughter.

                .................................................. ......Puckett.............Slaughter
                career win shares..................................281....... .............323
                top 3 seasons in win shares.....................92..................... 95
                best 5 consecutive in win shares.............136...................141
                black ink............................................... .22.....................12
                gray ink............................................... ..122...................161
                HOF standards......................................38. 8.................41.0
                times an all-star........................................10.... ................10
                MVP shares..........................................2. 56..................2.10
                # of 10 most similar in Cooperstown............2.......................2

                Yes, Puckett had his glaucoma, but that didn't affect him until after he was 35. He's 1 1/2-2 years of win shares behind Slaughter, and that gives Enos no credit for serving his country for three years at ages 27, 28 and 29. As Kirby's weight was creeping up anyway, you've got to wonder if Kirby could have caught Slaughter if you give both men a break. Frankly, I'm more sympathetic in analytical terms to Enos. The reason is, yes, Puckett's eyes betrayed him, but only after they had served him so well up to age 35. Enos' wartime service had very little relation to his baseball skills, other than those skills were ample evidence of his physical fitness to serve. I won't go too deeply into the above chart except to say that to my mind it demonstrates that if Puckett is fully qualified for the BBF HOF, so is Enos.

                Jim Albright
                Last edited by jalbright; 03-30-2006, 11:52 AM.
                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                Comment


                • #38
                  One quick follow-up on Belle's status in the voting. He now has to run the table to get elected, absent some additional votes. I wouldn't put money on his chances at anything resembling even odds.

                  Jim Albright
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jalbright
                    One quick follow-up on Belle's status in the voting. He now has to run the table to get elected, absent some additional votes. I wouldn't put money on his chances at anything resembling even odds.

                    Jim Albright
                    Wow. Five days into the actual balloting and it's essentially over. I'd love to believe otherwise, but Jim's prognostications are usually on, and always well thought out.
                    We really need fresh blood for these elections. Because this shouldn't be so predictable.
                    Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                    Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
                      Wow. Five days into the actual balloting and it's essentially over. I'd love to believe otherwise, but Jim's prognostications are usually on, and always well thought out.
                      We really need fresh blood for these elections. Because this shouldn't be so predictable.
                      Actually, we've already got four people to vote this month who didn't do so last month. The reason things are so close to over is that five days in, we've got 19 votes cast and only 7 outstanding. That small number of outstanding votes makes it easy to predict, since the most important premise of my predictions is that if you supported a guy last month and he was over 50% then, you'll continue your support in hopes he'll get elected. That part is anything but rocket science.

                      The things that are most difficult to predict are a) people not casting a ballot this month after doing so last month, and 2) people casting a ballot this month when they didn't do so last month. However, at least new ballots tend to work more against candidates than for them simply because of the 3/4 of the vote rule. Every "no" vote needs three to counter it, while every yes vote basically only puts an extra 1/4 of a vote into savings, the rest goes to the principal of helping elect the guy.

                      That's not to say I'm against new blood--but what I've said is just mathematical sense.

                      BTW thanks for the kind words. They're appreciated.

                      Jim Albright
                      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        With two more votes today (21 in the first week--I can't ever remember more than 15 in the first week to ten days in my year here), Belle and Lyons have now slipped below the waves for this month. Their only chance is for either a new voter to come along and name them or for someone who has voted this month to change his/her mind to include Belle and/or Lyons, and then for the lucky candidate to run the table. I'd say it's fair to call such a scenario unlikely. Welch improved to 16-5. He still needs five of the remaining six votes from last month's participants, and three of them didn't vote for him last month. He's got a shot, but right now I'd call it a slim one.

                        Foster and Boudreau are virtual locks, and if there are no new voters who don't name Nagashima, Lemon and Wilson, they're in as well. The last three would benefit greatly from pulling one more vote from the remaining voters who didn't support them last month.

                        Jim Albright
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I know there's a limited number of voters left, but for all those who haven't supported Bob Lemon, Stan Hack, C. I. Taylor, and George Weiss, I'm going to run some info on each to try and persuade you to do so, if not this month, then soon. Lemon's the only one who's on a pace for election, but he sure could use an insurance vote or two. Hack needs to get 2 votes he didn't get last month (two of the outstanding voters didn't support him then) but a switched vote would help him immensely. Taylor and Weiss both project to come up a vote short, and at least Taylor has two shots from the outstanding ballots to get it. Weiss has one shot to get his one vote, absent a change of heart.

                          Jim Albright
                          Last edited by jalbright; 04-02-2006, 07:53 AM.
                          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            George Weiss see this from Cooperstown's website: http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...iss_George.htm

                            C. I. Taylor--Negro League contributor

                            From Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, pages 763-764:

                            Acknowledged with Rube Foster as one of the two greatest managers of all time [in the Negro Leagues], contemporaries said that C. I. trained the players and Rube signed them. On the field, the master builder from Carolina was a strict disciplinarian and great teacher who brought out the best in his players . . . . In 1914, he . . . transferred his team to Indianapolis, where the club was sponsored by the American Brewing Company and called the ABCs. Immediately his baseball acumen was evident as he built and nurtured a team that was recognized as a perennial power . . . . Taylor knew how to handle men . . . . Taylor's brilliant career was abruptly terminated when he died at . . . age 47.
                            Notable accomplishments:
                            Won a championship in 1916
                            Brought Oscar Charleston, Dizzy Dismukes, Frank Warfield, Dave Malarcher and Biz Mackey among other Negro League stars into the top level of the Negro Leagues.

                            From BaseballLibrary.com:
                            C. I. Taylor was regarded by many . . . as the finest manager in black baseball history. He was patient and dignified, a strict disciplinarian and a good teacher, scrupulously fair and honest with his players. . . . Taylor's teams were perennial powers . . . . Taylor was also instrumental in the founding of the Negro National League.
                            From The Indianapolis ABCs by Paul Debono, pages 156 and 157:
                            C. I.'s greatest talent was recruiting and developing players. . . . Not only did Taylor develop players, but he developed managers. The list of Negro League managers who benefitted from his guidance at early stages of their careers is impressive: "Candy" Jim Taylor, "Bingo" DeMoss, "Dizzy" Dismukes, Oscar Charleston, Dave Malarcher, "Biz" Mackey, Otto Briggs and Frank Warfield all became noted managers in the Negro Leagues.
                            Jim Albright
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Bob Lemon

                              He has the fifth largest total of win shares of any 1950's pitcher. He was a seven time all star and was The Sporting News' AL pitcher of the year three times. He is 117th in MVP win shares, was 31st in Black Ink, and 57th in Gray Ink. He led the league 5 times in complete games and was second twice more.

                              Stan Hack

                              You've got to love a leadoff hitter with a .394 career OBP. His 318 career win shares place him 12th among 3rd basemen in the latest BJHA, 138th overall. His best 3 years in win shares are 8th among 3rd basemen, and his best 5 consecutive seasons are 10th among third sackers.
                              Last edited by jalbright; 04-02-2006, 07:53 AM.
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I would like to encourage anyone who hasn't cast a ballot yet to seriously consider 19th century OF Harry Stovey. At the present time, he has received 17 votes out of 23, meaning that if one more ballot comes in with Stovey's name on it, and there are no further ballots, he will gain election.

                                Slugging per cent: Led 3 times, 2nd twice.
                                Runs: Led 4 times, 2nd once.
                                Triples: Led 4 tmes, 21st all time.
                                Homeruns: Led 5 times, 2nd three times.
                                Stolen Bases: Led twice, 32nd all time. 13th among 19th century players.
                                Extra base hits: Led five times, 2nd twice.
                                Career OPS+: 143, 62nd highest all time.
                                Black Ink: 56 - 20th all time.
                                Grey Ink: 210 - 33rd all time.

                                He was the career home run leader until passed by Roger Connor, who in turn was passed by Babe Ruth.

                                Please consider a vote for Harry Stovey this month or next, as he is very close to election.
                                You see, you spend a good deal of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. J. Bouton

                                Comment

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