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  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
    Oh yeah...I forgot that, and therefore I didn't know you were kidding.

    Thanks.
    Lol, no problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Oh yeah...I forgot that, and therefore I didn't know you were kidding.

    Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
    I've never heard the Elizabeth Resolutes called "fabled" before. Please elaborate.
    Aren't you the guy from that town that asked me to describe them as such?

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
    Another contributor:

    Doug Allison

    Allison was the first catcher to play right behind the batter and the first to use a glove. Also the first professional catcher. Very durable for his time.



    Allison played 279 G at catcher and 61 in the OF [mostly RF].
    When the NA began in 1871 he was 24.
    He began as a semi-pro player in Philadelphia [for the Geary Club] before becoming the regular catcher for the famed and fabled Cincinnati Red Stockings from 1868-70.
    He was 2-21 as manager of the fabled Elizabeth Resolutes [NA] in 1873.
    He jumped around the NA, as did most everyone, and was done as a full time player after 1876 at age 30.
    Catchers had no [zero] equipment or protection.

    In NA and NL play [9 seasons]:

    318 G|1407 AB|236 R|382 H|44 doubles|10 triples|2 HR|139 RBI|44 SO|.271/.284/.321

    GP and WAR
    27/30: 0.9
    -2tm-: 1.4
    23/25
    18/NA
    -------
    -2tm-: 0.4
    11/NA
    19/23
    -------
    65/65: 0.7
    61/86: 1.4
    44/70: 1.5
    29/60: 0.1
    19/60: 0.5

    He is third in WAR among majority catchers at the time [1871-78], behind Cal McVey [whom he caught 100 more games than] and Deacon White.
    I've never heard the Elizabeth Resolutes called "fabled" before. Please elaborate.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    I'm shuffling my 25 players largely due to the fact this is the first time I've applied my new rating system to this project.

    1. Bobby Abreu
    2. Sal Bando
    3. Buddy Bell
    4. Cesar Cedeno
    5. Bus Clarkson
    6. David Cone
    7. Yutaka Enatsu
    8. Andruw Jones
    9. Chipper Jones
    10. Charlie Keller
    11. Masaaki Koyama
    12. Hiromitsu Ochiai
    13. Willie Randolph
    14. Rick Reuschel
    15. Scott Rolen
    16. Bret Saberhagen
    17. Gary Sheffield
    18. Chino Smith
    19. Reggie Smith
    20. Sammy Sosa
    21. Dave Stieb
    22. Jim Thome
    23. Luis Tiant
    24. Quincy Trouppe
    25. Jimmy Wynn

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Votes for Allison, Wheaton and Wadsworth will be accepted. In this project, I haven't kept a formal list like in other projects. Also, are you going to participate in the Best of Baseball project? If so, let me know.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Another contributor:

    Doug Allison

    Allison was the first catcher to play right behind the batter and the first to use a glove. Also the first professional catcher. Very durable for his time.

    Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
    Allison played 279 G at catcher and 61 in the OF [mostly RF].
    When the NA began in 1871 he was 24.
    He began as a semi-pro player in Philadelphia [for the Geary Club] before becoming the regular catcher for the famed and fabled Cincinnati Red Stockings from 1868-70.
    He was 2-21 as manager of the fabled Elizabeth Resolutes [NA] in 1873.
    He jumped around the NA, as did most everyone, and was done as a full time player after 1876 at age 30.
    Catchers had no [zero] equipment or protection.

    In NA and NL play [9 seasons]:

    318 G|1407 AB|236 R|382 H|44 doubles|10 triples|2 HR|139 RBI|44 SO|.271/.284/.321

    GP and WAR
    27/30: 0.9
    -2tm-: 1.4
    23/25
    18/NA
    -------
    -2tm-: 0.4
    11/NA
    19/23
    -------
    65/65: 0.7
    61/86: 1.4
    44/70: 1.5
    29/60: 0.1
    19/60: 0.5

    He is third in WAR among majority catchers at the time [1871-78], behind Cal McVey [whom he caught 100 more games than] and Deacon White.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    A couple contributors:

    Louis Fenn Wadsworth -- Baseball Pioneer

    - Came to Manhattan in 1848 as an attorney.
    - Played with the Gothams, was a top NY first baseman.
    - Moved to Knickerbocker Club in 1854 and was probably paid to do so.
    - Brought a diagram he had of a baseball diamond from a previous club to Knickerbocker practice. According to Duncan F. Curry [Knickerbocker Club] it was "...laid out substantially as it is to-day..." which was 1877.
    - Represented Knickerbocker at the first ever NABBP meeting. Went against Knickerbocker sentiment and motioned to make games 9 innings and 9 players to a side, which was accepted by the convention.
    - Played first base in the first paid admission game: "Fashion Race Course Games" of 1858. A three game series between NYC and Brooklyn.

    "I had almost forgotten the most important man on the team and that was Lew Wadsworth. He was the life of the club. Part of his suit consisted of a white shirt on the back of which was stamped a black devil. It makes me laugh still the way he used to go after balls. His hands were very large and when he went for a ball they looked like the tongs of an oyster rake. He got there all the same and but few balls passed him." - Veteran Knickerbocker to the New York Sun, 1887
    -----
    Responsible For:
    - The modern field layout.
    - 9 inning games
    - 9 men to a side

    William Rufus Wheaton -- Baseball Pioneer

    - Lawyer, co-founder of the Gotham Club in 1833.
    - Knickerbockers 1st VP
    - Main recruiter for club.
    - Wrote the clubs first formalized rules on September 23, 1845. Which he said were the same rules he wrote for the Gotham Club.

    Responsible For:
    - Basically the entire Knickerbocker rule book. Which served as the basis for the rules governing play we know today. Including:
    - Catchers holding the third strike.
    - No plugging runners. This allowed the ball to be wound tighter [because you weren't getting it thrown at you] and thus hit and thrown farther.
    - Foul territory
    - Offensive interference
    - Designated batting order.
    - Real bases -- not stumps or posts.
    - No one hop put outs.

    *All information from Baseball in the Garden of Eden by John Thorn

    Leave a comment:


  • J W
    replied
    My pre-ballot thoughts this year on the top 10 holdover players as well as some of the newcomers:

    Gary Sheffield (32 votes) - Considering we have broken the PED barrier, this guy belongs. Dude was a great hitter; not good, great (34th all time in oWAR). His defense drags him down from lofty all-time lists however.

    Rafael Palmeiro (31 votes)* - Also belongs; PEDs aside his numbers stack up with Eddie Murray and Willie McCovey.

    Sammy Sosa (31 votes) - Even without PED suspicion he would be considered an overrated player I think (and strangely enough, underrated defensively). Borderline candidate whose 60 HR seasons simply don't mean as much these days.

    Dwight Evans (30 votes)* - Better corner OF candidate than Sammy Sosa. Good defender with a cannon arm and a rock solid bat. Would be happy to see him elected.

    Bobby Bonds (25 votes) - Power/speed. Relatively short career (8090 PA) drags his career numbers down; also played for 8 teams in 14 seasons. Still nearly a 60 WAR player and I voted for him last ballot.

    Jimmy Wynn (25 votes)* - Similar boat to Bonds... 8011 career PA, an OPS+ just under 130 and a 55 WAR player. His identity with the expansion Houston franchise gives him the slight nod over Bobby in my book.

    Billy Pierce (24 votes)* - A welcome addition to the perhaps under-represented pitchers of the 1950s. Classic borderline guy in many of these kinds of projects.

    Kevin Brown (23 votes)* - Another PED case... but via the numbers, just as deserving a nod as Don Drysdale or Dazzy Vance.

    Quincy Trouppe (22 votes)* - The other NL/Latin baseball catcher in line after Biz Mackey. Fair projections along the lines of a Wally Schang, with perhaps a better glove.

    Pete Browning (21 votes)* - Still unsure how to rate the American Association star but he did bat with a 140 OPS+ in limited National League duty at the end of his career. Harry Stovey was elected and that bodes well for Browning.

    * Hall of Merit member

    --------------------------

    Chipper Jones (85.2 WAR) - this guy should be ushered in without a second thought.

    Jim Thome (72.8 WAR) - small hall guys might debate his inclusion but we have a Cooperstown sized hall and he may be in the upper half of that.

    Scott Rolen (70.0 WAR) - we should not make the same mistake that I suspect the BBWAA will make; he is a HOF caliber 3B.

    Andruw Jones (62.7 WAR) - I don't know if I can get around his lack of bat... well, except for the HR. Tough one.

    Bobby Abreu (60.4 WAR) - wasn't even a star player and put up a .292/.396/.477 line. Still, there are others I like better.

    Johnny Damon (56.3 WAR) - good player with nothing to really hang his hat on. Down in the queue.

    Jamie Moyer (50.4 WAR) - won't even entertain him until Jack Quinn is elected.

    Omar Vizquel (45.4 WAR) - most interesting newcomer to me. I see Visquel = Rabbit Maranville. Staggering defensive ratings but an identical 82 OPS+ over similar PA (aka a long time). Will his defensive rep help him on any ballots?
    Last edited by J W; 10-30-2013, 10:48 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Dave Johnson managed all season, so he's not eligible

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by jalbright View Post
    Leyland lasted into the playoffs, which means he becomes eligible next year. I suppose Charlie Manuel is eligible, since he wasn't active at the end of the season, and he, like Leyland is over 60.
    Dave Johnson?

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Leyland lasted into the playoffs, which means he becomes eligible next year. I suppose Charlie Manuel is eligible, since he wasn't active at the end of the season, and he, like Leyland is over 60.

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by jalbright View Post
    Looks like it will fall to me to run the election this November. That being the case, the proposed rule change by Brad will not be implemented. I plan on starting the election this Saturday, November 2 and ending the election on November 30. I do not know of any new contributors to add to the list, and will use Carlos Lee plus the others listed in post 1789 above as the list of new players eligible. If anyone has any contributors or players they think belong on the eligible list, post them here or contact me by PM.
    For contributors, Jim Leyland? I do not remember if age is one of the criteria for eligibility in this project. If not, he did announce his official retirement as a manager this year.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    If anyone needs any refreshers on the rules or who the holdovers are beyond the previous posts by Brad, the previous election is here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...t=2012+BBF+HOF

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Looks like it will fall to me to run the election this November. That being the case, the proposed rule change by Brad will not be implemented. I plan on starting the election this Saturday, November 2 and ending the election on November 30. I do not know of any new contributors to add to the list, and will use Carlos Lee plus the others listed in post 1789 above as the list of new players eligible. If anyone has any contributors or players they think belong on the eligible list, post them here or contact me by PM.

    Leave a comment:

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