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The Hall of Mistakes, Election #26 (final)

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  • The Hall of Mistakes, Election #26 (final)

    The Hall of Fame is never going to identify its mistakes, so it’s up to us. This is the 26th and final poll to set up a new wing in the Coop. We'll elect two players to get us up to 34 players. This is your last chance to have a say in who gets set aside.

    We want to isolate the players that don’t reach the HOF’s minimum standards, so that they will not be used as examples for arguing that a similar player deserves enshrinement. We’ll elect one mistake at a time. These are our first 32 dishonorees, by position:

    C - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
    1B - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
    2B - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski
    3B - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
    SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
    LF - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
    CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
    RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice
    P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper, Catfish Hunter

    Over on the History forum they’re running polls using the MVP voting format, voting for 10 guys in rank order, with points assigned 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let’s use that basic method, but since the differences between candidates are less now than in early rounds, I'll no longer give bonus points for getting a top vote. Your worst hall of fame player will be voted #1, the next worst #2, down to your 10th worst. The player with the most total points at the end of the poll (probably about a week) will hereafter be designated as a Mistake. We will follow with another thread to identify the next worst player, and so on. We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 225 players (34 guys).

    Players classified by the HOF as Pioneers/Managers/Executives/Umpires (e.g., Candy Cummings) are not eligible for this election. However, be aware that the 29 Negro league players are included - they are fair game for labeling as Mistakes.

    We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, Tommy McCarthy is probably the worst player in the Hall stat-wise. However, he was elected as much for being an innovator, a pioneer and a winning player as he was for his production as a player.

    Or Hughie Jennings. He has one of the shortest playing careers in the Hall. However, he was also a successful manager in addition to being the central player on a team often cited as the best of the 19th century. Frank Chance has a similar profile.

    So, voters will have to decide how much weight to give non-playing accomplishments. It should be interesting, as voters will need to consider more than just stats.

    A couple threads in this forum suggest candidates for voting out. (Underlined players are still active candidates.) The “Upper/Lower Hall of Fame Vote” thread has my list of who I think are the worst 76 players in the Hall. The poll under “Veterans Committee Mistakes” has the 26 worst players being Haines, T.Jackson, Lindstrom, Chesbro, Combs, Marquard, L. Waner, R. Ferrell, Hafey, Youngs, Hooper, G.Kelly, Tinker, Bottomley, Evers, Bancroft, Schoendienst, Rizzuto, Schalk, Lazzeri, Kell, Manush, Bender, Hoyt, Beckley and H. Wilson. (That poll did not include McCarthy, Willis or Chance.) There is also some good discussion from last spring in the thread “Weak HOFers”. Finally, in the thread "5 Tier HOF (v. 2) - The Admirable & Borderline" from 2003, the bottom 25 were identified (alphabetically) as Bancroft, Bottomley, Bresnahan, Chance, Chesbro, Combs, Evers, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Hoyt, T.Jackson, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Maranville, Marquard, Mazeroski, McCarthy, Pennock, Rizzuto, Schalk, Schoendienst, Tinker, L.Waner, and Youngs.

    With Lindstrom, Kelly, McCarthy, Marquard, Haines, Waner, T. Jackson, Ferrell, Youngs, Bender, Hafey, Pennock, Combs, Chesbro, Hoyt, Tinker, Schalk, Johnson, Bottomley, Schoendienst, Kell, Willis, Hooper, Manush, Bancroft, Evers, Rizzuto, Mazeroski, Cooper, Cuyler, Hunter and Rice no longer eligible, here's my list of the next ten to vote out:

    1.Day L
    2.Lazzeri
    3.Wilson H
    4.Gomez
    5.Lombardi
    6.Maranville
    7.Chance
    8.Smith H
    9.Sutter
    10.Dandridge
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    1. Fingers
    2. Perez, Tony
    3. Bresnahan
    4. Rixey
    5. Wilson, H.
    6. Lombardi
    7. Gomez
    8. Lazzeri
    9. Sutter
    10. Dean
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

    Comment


    • #3
      1.Rollie Fingers
      2.Tony Lazerri
      3.Lefty Gomez
      4.Hack Wilson
      5.Rabbit Maranville
      6.Frank Chance
      7.Jake Beckley
      8.Ernie Lombardi
      9.Roger Bresnahan
      10.Tony Perez

      Comment


      • #4
        1) Lefty Gomez
        2) Bruce Sutter
        3) Leon day
        4) Tony Perez
        5) Rollie Fingers
        6) Tony Lazzeri
        7) Ernie Lombardi
        8) Hilton Smith
        10) Jake Beckley

        Comment


        • #5
          And DOWN the stretch they come...

          I'll put up the consensus ballot here:

          1.Day
          2.Fingers
          3.Perez
          4.Lazzeri
          5.Lombardi
          6.Wilson H
          7.Rixey
          8.Sutter
          9.Bresnahan
          10.Gomez

          Hopefully, we'll get a couple more voters to chime in...speak now or forever hold your peace. The results and the new project will be up, probably tomorrow.
          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

          Comment


          • #6
            Results, Final Election

            Condolences to Rollie Fingers and Tony Lazzeri, who become the 33rd and 34th members of the Hall of Mistakes. Fingers becomes the third BBWAA selection to join our roster of mistakes, along with Pennock and Hunter. They join Fred Lindstrom, George Kelly, Tommy McCarthy, Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Lloyd Waner, Travis Jackson, Rick Ferrell, Ross Youngs, Chief Bender, Chick Hafey, Herb Pennock, Earle Combs, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Joe Tinker, Ray Schalk, Judy Johnson, Red Schoendienst, Jim Bottomley, George Kell, Vic Willis, Harry Hooper, Heinie Manush, Dave Bancroft, Johnny Evers, Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Andy Cooper, Kiki Cuyler, Catfish Hunter and Sam Rice.

            Here are the full results for the 26th election:
            Code:
            Pts	1st	Bal	Top 10 Players
            35	2	4	Rollie Fingers
            33	0	5	Tony Lazzeri
            30	1	5	Lefty Gomez
            28	2	3	Leon Day
            26	0	4	Hack Wilson
            25	0	4	Tony Perez
            24	0	5	Ernie Lombardi
            16	0	4	Bruce Sutter
            12	0	3	Roger Bresnahan
            11	0	2	Rabbit Maranville
            			the rest
            11	0	2	Rixey
            9	0	2	Chance
            6	0	2	Smith H
            5	0	2	Beckley
            1	0	1	Dean
            1	0	1	Dandridge
            The final roster, consisting of the bottom 15% in the HOF, looks like this:

            C - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
            1B - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
            2B - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Tony Lazzeri
            3B - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
            SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
            LF - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
            CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
            RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice
            P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper, Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers

            Join us for The Hall of Corrections and give us your top ten picks to replace these guys in the HOF.
            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

            Comment


            • #7
              HOF Replacements

              I just came across your Hall Of Corrections and I think its hilarious that you voted 34 guys out of the Hall Of Fame and that you came up with a complicated voting process in order to do it. Maybe I'm not as mean-spirited as you guys so I'm not voting anyone out. It'll never happen in the real world so why even contemplate it. I'd have to strongly suggest that you erred by ranking a few players in that bottom group that are ripe for removal.
              I would not rank in the bottom rung of the HOF the following five players:
              Sam Rice - he missed 3,000 Hits by 13 hits. Heine Manush hit .330 lifetime. Lloyd Waner hit .316 lifetime. Jim Bottomley hit .310 for his career and was the top slugger in the National League for a few years. Pennock was a racist GM for a few years after WWII for the Phillies until his sudden death, but on the field he put up; some excellent pitching numbers that do not indicate that he belongs in the bottom group that he should be removed, if you really scrutinize his stats.
              If I could add a few players I'd go with Minnie Minoso, who doesn't get a fair shake from the voters because part of his career was spent in the Cuban Leagues and the Negro Leagues because of the race barrier, Jim Rice, Goose Gossage, Andre Dawson, Gil Hodges, Ron Santo, Jim Kaat, Luis Tiant and although not yet eleigible for the Hall, Andres Galarraga.
              I'd also include one totally forgotten pitcher Lew Burdette who won 203 games with a .590 winning percentage and seemed to get all his outs on ground balls and actually finished his career with less than 1100 strikeouts, which would be an unheard of feat in today's game.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey, Philly-browns Fan, Welcome To The Fever!

                You may have missed out on the concept of this "Hall of Mistakes" by jumping in at this post (and you may already know this, but this may also apply to others looking in, so....) Freakshow started this thread as a way to identify the bottom 15% of the members of the Hall of Fame, and its companion project, The Hall of Corrections, is the players who were voted as worthy to replace the players at the bottom tier in Cooperstown.

                There is another project currently underway that you may be interested in, the Baseball Fever Hall Of Fame (BBF HoF). Check it out; we enjoy some lively discussion around here, as you may have noticed, and can always use more input.

                BTW, your screen name indicates some real suffering. I know the feeling, as a long-time Detroit Tigers and Cleveland Browns fan. h The Tigers finally made me proud this year, but my football team still stinks!
                Last edited by 2Chance; 11-28-2006, 10:05 PM.
                "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
                --Bob Feller

                Comment


                • #9
                  Jeez, two of my all time favorite players in the Hall of Mistakes... Ouch!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Minoso, SI - Rixey, Sutter, NO!

                    To 2 Chance: Thanks for the welcome and explaining a few Ground Rules of this site.! Actually I'm a Phillies fan and a Browns historian (if that doesn't sound too pompous). My number one choice for the Hall Of Corrections would be Minnie Minoso (see my previous post within the Hall Of Fame Talk Topic). If I were to choose I'd say Eppa Rixey at only 15 games above .500 (266-251 lifetime) would be at the top of my list for replacement.
                    I think its hilarious that the same year Bruce Sutter was elected to the Hall Of Fame - You guys nearly voted him out!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Era Weighting & could we vote out a few executives, please?

                      I think voting people out of the HOF is a fun and funny concept, but checking the roster of the replaceables only five played after WWII (Schoendienst, Kell, Rizutto, Mazeroski and Hunter) and of these five only two played their entire career after WWII (Mazeroski and Hunter). If i can get serious for a moment isn't the Hall Of Mistakes throwing out too many from distant eras that we don't know well (except by their stats) and keeping a few more recent (1946 to present) guys in, that we may be more familiar with.
                      In a related subject can't we throw out a few bad executives (from all eras)?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Certainly you can boot out Sutter and Maz dudes

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We did bounce Mazeroskie. These polls were completed before Sutter's election. The reason more older players were zapped is that most of the mistakes were made by the VC who, by its nature picks players much further back in the timeline than the BBWAA. While the BBWAA has made mistakes they have made many fewer. This is probably due to them having first shot at the cream (or the obvious, if you will).
                          Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sam Rice ???

                            How did Sam Rice make this list? 13 hits shy of 3000, .322 BA, 275 SO, one of the best defensive RF ever.
                            In the 1920's, Harry Heilmann led the AL with a .364 average. In addition, he averaged 220 hits, 45 doubles, 12 triples, 16 homers, 110 runs, and 130 RBI.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by HDH
                              How did Sam Rice make this list? 13 hits shy of 3000, .322 BA, 275 SO, one of the best defensive RF ever.
                              To be a hall of famer, a RF needs to hit A LOT better than a 112 OPS+. He had a nice career, and he's not too far from HOF caliber. If he had any power at all, or been a good base stealer, or had drawn 50% more walks he might have deserved it.

                              Yeah, he hit .322, but in a .286 league. Give me Al Oliver, .303 in a .262 league, and with decent power in a career of similar length.
                              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                              Comment

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