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The Hall of Mistakes, Election #26 (final)

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  • philliesfiend55
    Sam Rice

    I wouldn't quibble about Sam Rice's HOF status because he doesn't measure up according to the more advanced and sophisticated stats we have at our disposal today. Based on the more primitive stats of his era Rice earned his way to the Hall, and actually should have gotten in sooner than he did.
    The only things un-Hall Of Fame-like about his career were that he reached the majors relatively late in his mid-20's, and he made an error in judgement by not pursuing his 3,000th hit. I understand that he had an offer to return to the Washington Senators, where he'd spent 19 of his 20 seasons, during Spring Training, 1935 in order to reach the milestone, but he turned it down and chose to retire instead. Based on what he had done in 1934 with the Cleveland Indians he could still hit and could have played one more year. (98 hits in 97 games, a .293 batting average in 335 at bats). Those stats don't exactly scream "It's time to hang them up". If Rice came back for one last season in '35, he would have easily reached 3,000 hits early in the season, but more importanly, he might have found himself in that first induction ceremony in Cooperstown in 1939 (based on four elections (1936-39), rather than having to wait until 1963, when he finally got elected at age 73, and after living most of his life as a forgotten star.

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  • Sliding Billy
    Originally posted by Freakshow
    To be a hall of famer, a RF needs to hit A LOT better than a 112 OPS+. He had a nice career, and he's not too far from HOF caliber. If he had any power at all, or been a good base stealer, or had drawn 50% more walks he might have deserved it.
    I think his relative stats and value were diminished by the advent of the lively ball, as his offensive forte was contact. He did pile up more doubles and triples, but the league moved faster than he did. If he'd played from age 20 to 39, '10 to '29 instead of '15 to 34, he might have had a similar career line, but much more impressive in context.

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  • Freakshow
    Originally posted by HDH
    How did Sam Rice make this list? 13 hits shy of 3000, .322 BA, 275 SO, one of the best defensive RF ever.
    To be a hall of famer, a RF needs to hit A LOT better than a 112 OPS+. He had a nice career, and he's not too far from HOF caliber. If he had any power at all, or been a good base stealer, or had drawn 50% more walks he might have deserved it.

    Yeah, he hit .322, but in a .286 league. Give me Al Oliver, .303 in a .262 league, and with decent power in a career of similar length.

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  • HDH
    Sam Rice ???

    How did Sam Rice make this list? 13 hits shy of 3000, .322 BA, 275 SO, one of the best defensive RF ever.

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    We did bounce Mazeroskie. These polls were completed before Sutter's election. The reason more older players were zapped is that most of the mistakes were made by the VC who, by its nature picks players much further back in the timeline than the BBWAA. While the BBWAA has made mistakes they have made many fewer. This is probably due to them having first shot at the cream (or the obvious, if you will).

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  • Jim Abbott
    Certainly you can boot out Sutter and Maz dudes

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  • philliesfiend55
    Era Weighting & could we vote out a few executives, please?

    I think voting people out of the HOF is a fun and funny concept, but checking the roster of the replaceables only five played after WWII (Schoendienst, Kell, Rizutto, Mazeroski and Hunter) and of these five only two played their entire career after WWII (Mazeroski and Hunter). If i can get serious for a moment isn't the Hall Of Mistakes throwing out too many from distant eras that we don't know well (except by their stats) and keeping a few more recent (1946 to present) guys in, that we may be more familiar with.
    In a related subject can't we throw out a few bad executives (from all eras)?

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  • philliesfiend55
    Minoso, SI - Rixey, Sutter, NO!

    To 2 Chance: Thanks for the welcome and explaining a few Ground Rules of this site.! Actually I'm a Phillies fan and a Browns historian (if that doesn't sound too pompous). My number one choice for the Hall Of Corrections would be Minnie Minoso (see my previous post within the Hall Of Fame Talk Topic). If I were to choose I'd say Eppa Rixey at only 15 games above .500 (266-251 lifetime) would be at the top of my list for replacement.
    I think its hilarious that the same year Bruce Sutter was elected to the Hall Of Fame - You guys nearly voted him out!

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  • EvanAparra
    Jeez, two of my all time favorite players in the Hall of Mistakes... Ouch!

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  • 2Chance
    Hey, Philly-browns Fan, Welcome To The Fever!

    You may have missed out on the concept of this "Hall of Mistakes" by jumping in at this post (and you may already know this, but this may also apply to others looking in, so....) Freakshow started this thread as a way to identify the bottom 15% of the members of the Hall of Fame, and its companion project, The Hall of Corrections, is the players who were voted as worthy to replace the players at the bottom tier in Cooperstown.

    There is another project currently underway that you may be interested in, the Baseball Fever Hall Of Fame (BBF HoF). Check it out; we enjoy some lively discussion around here, as you may have noticed, and can always use more input.

    BTW, your screen name indicates some real suffering. I know the feeling, as a long-time Detroit Tigers and Cleveland Browns fan. h The Tigers finally made me proud this year, but my football team still stinks!
    Last edited by 2Chance; 11-28-2006, 10:05 PM.

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  • philliesfiend55
    HOF Replacements

    I just came across your Hall Of Corrections and I think its hilarious that you voted 34 guys out of the Hall Of Fame and that you came up with a complicated voting process in order to do it. Maybe I'm not as mean-spirited as you guys so I'm not voting anyone out. It'll never happen in the real world so why even contemplate it. I'd have to strongly suggest that you erred by ranking a few players in that bottom group that are ripe for removal.
    I would not rank in the bottom rung of the HOF the following five players:
    Sam Rice - he missed 3,000 Hits by 13 hits. Heine Manush hit .330 lifetime. Lloyd Waner hit .316 lifetime. Jim Bottomley hit .310 for his career and was the top slugger in the National League for a few years. Pennock was a racist GM for a few years after WWII for the Phillies until his sudden death, but on the field he put up; some excellent pitching numbers that do not indicate that he belongs in the bottom group that he should be removed, if you really scrutinize his stats.
    If I could add a few players I'd go with Minnie Minoso, who doesn't get a fair shake from the voters because part of his career was spent in the Cuban Leagues and the Negro Leagues because of the race barrier, Jim Rice, Goose Gossage, Andre Dawson, Gil Hodges, Ron Santo, Jim Kaat, Luis Tiant and although not yet eleigible for the Hall, Andres Galarraga.
    I'd also include one totally forgotten pitcher Lew Burdette who won 203 games with a .590 winning percentage and seemed to get all his outs on ground balls and actually finished his career with less than 1100 strikeouts, which would be an unheard of feat in today's game.

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  • Freakshow
    Results, Final Election

    Condolences to Rollie Fingers and Tony Lazzeri, who become the 33rd and 34th members of the Hall of Mistakes. Fingers becomes the third BBWAA selection to join our roster of mistakes, along with Pennock and Hunter. They join Fred Lindstrom, George Kelly, Tommy McCarthy, Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Lloyd Waner, Travis Jackson, Rick Ferrell, Ross Youngs, Chief Bender, Chick Hafey, Herb Pennock, Earle Combs, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Joe Tinker, Ray Schalk, Judy Johnson, Red Schoendienst, Jim Bottomley, George Kell, Vic Willis, Harry Hooper, Heinie Manush, Dave Bancroft, Johnny Evers, Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Andy Cooper, Kiki Cuyler, Catfish Hunter and Sam Rice.

    Here are the full results for the 26th election:
    Pts	1st	Bal	Top 10 Players
    35	2	4	Rollie Fingers
    33	0	5	Tony Lazzeri
    30	1	5	Lefty Gomez
    28	2	3	Leon Day
    26	0	4	Hack Wilson
    25	0	4	Tony Perez
    24	0	5	Ernie Lombardi
    16	0	4	Bruce Sutter
    12	0	3	Roger Bresnahan
    11	0	2	Rabbit Maranville
    			the rest
    11	0	2	Rixey
    9	0	2	Chance
    6	0	2	Smith H
    5	0	2	Beckley
    1	0	1	Dean
    1	0	1	Dandridge
    The final roster, consisting of the bottom 15% in the HOF, looks like this:

    C - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
    1B - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
    2B - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Tony Lazzeri
    3B - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
    SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
    LF - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
    CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
    RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice
    P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper, Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers

    Join us for The Hall of Corrections and give us your top ten picks to replace these guys in the HOF.

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  • Freakshow
    And DOWN the stretch they come...

    I'll put up the consensus ballot here:

    6.Wilson H

    Hopefully, we'll get a couple more voters to chime in...speak now or forever hold your peace. The results and the new project will be up, probably tomorrow.

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  • leecemark
    1) Lefty Gomez
    2) Bruce Sutter
    3) Leon day
    4) Tony Perez
    5) Rollie Fingers
    6) Tony Lazzeri
    7) Ernie Lombardi
    8) Hilton Smith
    10) Jake Beckley

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  • egautographs
    1.Rollie Fingers
    2.Tony Lazerri
    3.Lefty Gomez
    4.Hack Wilson
    5.Rabbit Maranville
    6.Frank Chance
    7.Jake Beckley
    8.Ernie Lombardi
    9.Roger Bresnahan
    10.Tony Perez

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