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Your position on Steroids, and have you been to the HOF??

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  • #31
    Grace didn't mind seeing all those fat pitches with Sosa behind him though. Sosa also hit 300 plus for those 5 years he averaged 60 dingers and drove in about 130 per . I guess Mark must have gone to a pshrink and had him bring up repressed memories for him to know and say so much now.

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    • #32
      No to Bonds or any others from the steroids crowd in the Hall of Fame. Like Pete Rose and the Black Sox, their actions reflect on the game itself.

      I have never been to Cooperstown, but would love to go.

      Brownie31

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      • #33
        I will never understand why Pete Rose the player is kept out. He was all about winning every time he took the field. Not sure? Ask Ray Fosse.Joe Jackson and his seven cohorts took cash to tank games they were playing in.The lines between Pete the player and Pete the mgr who bet on baseball have become too blurred. What Pete the so so mgr who bet on baseball never understood was that the days he didn't bet on the Reds it was the same as betting against them in the bookies eyes.
        Pete Rose is a HOF player and the irony is that by keeping him out MLB has probably made him millions each and every year.Nothing Pete likes more than a fast buck.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Lindseynelson
          I will never understand why Pete Rose the player is kept out. He was all about winning every time he took the field. Not sure? Ask Ray Fosse.Joe Jackson and his seven cohorts took cash to tank games they were playing in.The lines between Pete the player and Pete the mgr who bet on baseball have become too blurred. What Pete the so so mgr who bet on baseball never understood was that the days he didn't bet on the Reds it was the same as betting against them in the bookies eyes.
          Pete Rose is a HOF player and the irony is that by keeping him out MLB has probably made him millions each and every year.Nothing Pete likes more than a fast buck.
          If you can believe the Sokolove book, Pete Rose's gambling did not begin as a manager. I really would not be shocked if that were true.
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          • #35
            Originally posted by Lindseynelson
            I will never understand why Pete Rose the player is kept out. He was all about winning every time he took the field. Not sure? Ask Ray Fosse.Joe Jackson and his seven cohorts took cash to tank games they were playing in.The lines between Pete the player and Pete the mgr who bet on baseball have become too blurred. What Pete the so so mgr who bet on baseball never understood was that the days he didn't bet on the Reds it was the same as betting against them in the bookies eyes.
            Pete Rose is a HOF player and the irony is that by keeping him out MLB has probably made him millions each and every year.Nothing Pete likes more than a fast buck.
            This is just silly.... Why is he kept out??

            You have obviously never been in a Major or Minor League Clubhouse. The rule is posted on the wall. He11, it is posted in the UMPIRE ROOM at the AAA ballpark I frequent in Indianapolis. This is not a small sign, either. It is as big as a poster haning on a kids wall, about 3 feet by 2 feet. It CLEARLY states "Don't bet on games.... you will be kicked out of baseball if you do so." Pete Rose walked by that sign TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES as a player and a manager. He is now banished, and actually SIGNED the document banning him, and is therefore NOT ELIGIBLE for the HOF. Nor should he be. How is this hard to understand??

            He was all about winning? Ask Ray Fosse?

            Are you kidding? 99% of the guys in the big leages are "all about winning." If there is EVER another player who collides with the catcher... will you place them among the "winners?" It's like you think Pete is the only one to run over a catcher, all-star game or not. Watch a guy like Scott Rolen break up a double play at second base when the Cards have a 5 run lead.... isnt' this the same type of action? Watch the great hitters of the game bearing down during an at bat when their team is up big or down big and the game is essentially over. Something like this happens EVERY DAY in the big leagues.

            The Lines between player and manager have become blurred
            I don't think so... it was the same guy, Pete Rose right???? This is like saying that Barry Bonds pre-steroids is a different situation than Barry Bonds post steroids. Pete on the day BEFORE he placed his first bet on baseball, (whever that was) and Pete after he placed his very first bet on baseball is the SAME PERSON, and should be treated as such. Shoeless Joe was a HOF'er before he disgraced himself.... so what?

            Pete Rose can make all the millions he wants...... but he should not be in the HOF
            "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

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            • #36
              Originally posted by StanTheMan
              This is just silly.... Why is he kept out??

              You have obviously never been in a Major or Minor League Clubhouse. The rule is posted on the wall. He11, it is posted in the UMPIRE ROOM at the AAA ballpark I frequent in Indianapolis. This is not a small sign, either. It is as big as a poster haning on a kids wall, about 3 feet by 2 feet. It CLEARLY states "Don't bet on games.... you will be kicked out of baseball if you do so." Pete Rose walked by that sign TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES as a player and a manager. He is now banished, and actually SIGNED the document banning him, and is therefore NOT ELIGIBLE for the HOF. Nor should he be. How is this hard to understand??

              He was all about winning? Ask Ray Fosse?

              Are you kidding? 99% of the guys in the big leages are "all about winning." If there is EVER another player who collides with the catcher... will you place them among the "winners?" It's like you think Pete is the only one to run over a catcher, all-star game or not. Watch a guy like Scott Rolen break up a double play at second base when the Cards have a 5 run lead.... isnt' this the same type of action? Watch the great hitters of the game bearing down during an at bat when their team is up big or down big and the game is essentially over. Something like this happens EVERY DAY in the big leagues.

              The Lines between player and manager have become blurred
              I don't think so... it was the same guy, Pete Rose right???? This is like saying that Barry Bonds pre-steroids is a different situation than Barry Bonds post steroids. Pete on the day BEFORE he placed his first bet on baseball, (whever that was) and Pete after he placed his very first bet on baseball is the SAME PERSON, and should be treated as such. Shoeless Joe was a HOF'er before he disgraced himself.... so what?

              Pete Rose can make all the millions he wants...... but he should not be in the HOF
              Easy fella there are pills that can mellow you out.
              Rose the player and Rose the mgr are not the same baseball man. Rose the mgr had direct control over the actions of his team daily not just himself.He could sit a player for a "rest"if he chose to or run a guy out onto the hill with a tired arm if that suited him.Probably never did but as mgr he could .He was in charge of the clubs decisions every game .
              I used Fosse to accent a point about his(Pete the player) focus on winning at any cost in even an exhibition game.I have in fact been in clubhouses in both Yankee and Shea and have seen those prominent signs and then watched high stakes poker games and 200 dollar per box MNF grids going on.
              My last point was that that old hustler Pete probably loved the fact that every year he's in the limelight and can hawk whatever he can sign.I could care less if he gets in but as a player it seem to me he belongs.
              Bonds belongs in the Hall .Prior to 04 these substances were not banned by MLB. As you so eloquently point out baseball betting is banned. Using your point then all the juicers who never tested positive prior to the ban are home free because MLB had not banned or printed new clubhouse signs..Let's not forget the blind eye all these holier than thou folks had when juice was turning the turnstiles. Bud and his gang were building their ballparks and TV revenues on the swollen bodies and numbers and now that the luxury boxes are full it's " time to clean up baseball".Well I have more respect for a guy who was taking performance enhancers in an effort to be at his peak, both for mercenary and for team reasons, than the guy who shows up hungover or is doing blow and wasting his and everyone elses time and money
              I've said it before , I don't care what you're on in baseball you still have to hit that 90 plus( think any pitchers juiced?) round object with your round object in about a tenth of a second squarely.
              Road Trip to Canton everyone .Let's tear down the Steeler and Raider etc plaques from the 70's and 80's. Jim Brown is once again the all time leading rusher , oh that's right noone cares.

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              • #37
                If I had a vote, I wouldn't vote for any player who has played since about 1998. Count me as a fan who has never been particualrly excited by the longball and certainly wasn't in 1998.

                I've been to the Hall of Fame twice. The last time was 17 years ago.

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                • #38
                  My take is this. Steroid use is a product of the fans obession with the game.
                  We the fans demand the players perform on the field. If they perform, at a level we deem to be less than atiquate we in turn "boo" them or call into radio talk shows and bash them while the baseball writers bash them in columns.

                  On the other hand players that perform at a high level are rewarded with excessively huge contracts paid for by face it us fans who shill outs tons of money paying the absorbant ticket prices, get praised on talk shows and cheered by we the fans. And when a player hits a home run to win the game for our team do we stop and say gee he probably took steroids so therefore it shouldn't count...? Not hardly!

                  So is it really a wonder why a baseball player would want to use steroids? Isn't it to an extent human nature to feel a desire to be cheered and reveered by millions of fans as opposed to booed and run down by the media?

                  So I think that we ourselves in large part are to blame for the steroid use in baseball today. I don't think any player should be banned from the game for steroid use. Now that the steroid testing policy is in place I think we should let that work as a deterent. Players such as Palmeiro or Bonds or Sheffield, or Giambi should be judged on the numbers they put up.
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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sockeye
                    My take is this. Steroid use is a product of the fans obession with the game.
                    We the fans demand the players perform on the field. If they perform, at a level we deem to be less than atiquate we in turn "boo" them or call into radio talk shows and bash them while the baseball writers bash them in columns.

                    On the other hand players that perform at a high level are rewarded with excessively huge contracts paid for by face it us fans who shill outs tons of money paying the absorbant ticket prices, get praised on talk shows and cheered by we the fans. And when a player hits a home run to win the game for our team do we stop and say gee he probably took steroids so therefore it shouldn't count...? Not hardly!

                    So is it really a wonder why a baseball player would want to use steroids? Isn't it to an extent human nature to feel a desire to be cheered and reveered by millions of fans as opposed to booed and run down by the media?

                    So I think that we ourselves in large part are to blame for the steroid use in baseball today. I don't think any player should be banned from the game for steroid use. Now that the steroid testing policy is in place I think we should let that work as a deterent. Players such as Palmeiro or Bonds or Sheffield, or Giambi should be judged on the numbers they put up.
                    That might be true if only baseball players were using steroids, but it's been prevalent in track and even swimming, sports nowhere near the fan level as baseball, for years.
                    Just like in any aspect of life, if there is something out there to give you an edge on the competition, chances are you'd take it. That's the all-encompassing you, by the way. I don't think players started taking steroids because they were concerned about boos.
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                    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
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                    • #40
                      I went to Cooperstown last year with my son. It was awesome. Walking into the Hall with the plaques was like walking into church. The quiet and awe and the looking for your favorite players. It was a great experience for me and left an impression on my then 12 year old son.

                      As for steroids, my son calls Barry a cheat! In it's simplist form this is just a game and those who try to 'get an edge' by loading the dice, peaking at your hand, or injecting something is a cheat! Even my 12 year old can see that. If it is proven that he did take steriods then cut off his stats starting that year and vote on him based on the prior years and he is still a Hall of Famer, why did he ruin that!?!?!?!?
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Lindseynelson

                        I used Fosse to accent a point about his(Pete the player) focus on winning at any cost in even an exhibition game.

                        But that alone is not even CLOSE to getting someone in the HOF. There is evidence of "gamers" and "winning at all cost" EVERYDAY in the big Leagues, IMO

                        I have in fact been in clubhouses in both Yankee and Shea and have seen those prominent signs and then watched high stakes poker games and 200 dollar per box MNF grids going on.

                        Next time you are there.... Read the sign again... Are MNF Pools banned? How about NCAA Pools? Betting on how much Milk the Batboy can Drink before he pukes? h Do Card games even have the REMOTE possibility of clouding the contest held on the diamond? Any chance they could POSSIBLY alter a players performance on the field due to his wager on a hand of Poker three hours before the game, or on the bus, or on a plane? You're comparing a Lego building to the Great Pyramid. One of these is the Card Game, the other is betting on a baseball game you play in, or manage, or umpire, or have even the most minor indirect control over. I'll let you figure out which is the Great Pyramid and which is the Lego house.

                        My last point was that that old hustler Pete probably loved the fact that every year he's in the limelight and can hawk whatever he can sign.I could care less if he gets in but as a player it seem to me he belongs.

                        His accomplishments while on the absolutely represent a HOF career. Unfortunately he has several unsavory "accomplishments" including signing a document banning himself from baseball, and saying for about a dozen years "I did NOT bet on Baseball." Then meeting with Selig and saying "Yes sir, I did bet on baseball." As the TOTAL PACKAGE, he is not HOF worthy, much less even eligible to be on the ballot. I would find it appropriate, and absolutely dripping with irony, if, once he is in the hands of the Veterans Committee (if he ever gets that far) one of the Veterans on the commitee said loudly and publicly... "Pete lied Publicly about betting on baseball for 12 years. I'll consider voting for him in exactly 12 years time. Call me in the year 20XX"

                        Bonds belongs in the Hall .Prior to 04 these substances were not banned by MLB.

                        But these substances were illegal on every square inch of soil in the United States of America.... including every batters box, every gym, and Barry's house. They were illegal in Barry's syringe, they were illegal in Barr's bottom. If he did nothing wrong, why not shoot up in the batters box, or drink a gallon of the clear in the clubhouse when talking to reporters after the game? Maybe the threat of PRISON made Barry do what he did in the privacy of his own circle of "friends." Not against the rules of baseball? How about sharpening the knob of your bat razor sharp and jabbing it into the shoulder of the other team's pitcher before the game? Do you need a poster on the wall for that, or do normal, everyday laws against ASSAULT mean anything??


                        As you so eloquently point out baseball betting is banned. Using your point then all the juicers who never tested positive prior to the ban are home free because MLB had not banned or printed new clubhouse signs..

                        No, they are not home free, just criminals, and I don't want them in the HOF either knowing what we know at this point. As more players are "outed" just add them to the list....... Just the suspicion of using Steroids (Sheffield, Bonds, McGwire, etc. is enough to make me want to NOT vote for HOF induction (if I had a vote) and wait for more information. Eddie Matthews hit 500+ Home Runs and waited FOUR BALLOTS before he got in. He was neither a suspected (or proven) juicer, nor a bad guy, or a clubhouse cancer. Yet he waited for YEARS with his 500+ Home Runs. The smart thing to do with these steroid users is to do the same..... Wait and see... the HOF does not need "beyond a reasonable doubt" it is not a court of law.

                        Let's not forget the blind eye all these holier than thou folks had when juice was turning the turnstiles. Bud and his gang were building their ballparks and TV revenues on the swollen bodies and numbers and now that the luxury boxes are full it's " time to clean up baseball".

                        The 1919 White Sox were IMMENSLY popular... but it did not save them either, nor should it. Was Pete Popular at all.... HMMMMMM. What does attendance have to do with it??? Would you rather not have a clean game to watch? I feel duped by the ball I watched in the late 90's and early 80's. It was not my father's game, and fortunately, my children will have a better game to watch as well. Popularity, or the Commissioner's Office's well used policy of IGNORING the issue while the Olympics, the NFL etc. all addressed the situation to some degree does NOT relieve a juicer from scrutiny.

                        Well I have more respect for a guy who was taking performance enhancers in an effort to be at his peak, both for mercenary and for team reasons, than the guy who shows up hungover or is doing blow and wasting his and everyone elses time and money

                        I agree, but it does eliminate one from HOF contention, IMO. To each his own.

                        I've said it before , I don't care what you're on in baseball you still have to hit that 90 plus( think any pitchers juiced?) round object with your round object in about a tenth of a second squarely.

                        Absolutely Correct....... But, juiced pitchers should be treated with the same contempt, IMO. Think a Defense attorney would try this at a Murder Trial......? "Your honor, I think the Murder case against my client should be thrown out of court.... One time, back in the day, some guy got away with Murder. He is walking around free as we speak. In fact, since this guy did it and got away with it, we should stop arresting murderers alltogether, regardless of the evidence against them. The defense Rests, LOL

                        .
                        Bryan in Indy
                        Last edited by StanTheMan; 04-13-2006, 03:56 PM.
                        "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

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                        • #42
                          I went to Cooperstown the Fall after McGwire hit his bogus # 70 in 98. Of course not knowing any better, it seemed like an exciting time to go. If I am not mistaken, that was the year Brett, Ryan, and Yount were elected. I enjoyed Cooperstown, but would have a much better appreciation of it now, since I was only 17 when I went last time.
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