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Best Player not in the Hall not named Jackson or Rose?

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  • Best Player not in the Hall not named Jackson or Rose?

    Who's the best player not in the hall who is not named Shoeless Joe Jackson or Pete Rose?

  • #2
    1. Andre Dawson
    2. Jim Rice
    3. Don Mattingly

    1. Jack Morris
    2. Lee Smith
    3. Goose Gossage


    • #3
      Ron Santo.

      My top ten (in order):
      1. Santo
      2. Allen
      3. Minoso
      4. Simmons
      5. Blyleven
      6. Gossage
      7. Trammell
      8. Boyer
      9. Magee
      10. Torre
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe


      • #4
        Now that Torriente has gotten in, IMO the flag has passed to Ron Santo.

        My top 10 eligible position players goes like this:

        1.Ron Santo
        2.Dick Allen
        3.Jimmy Wynn
        4.Bobby Grich
        5.Bobby Bonds
        6.Alan Trammell
        7.Sal Bando
        8.Sherry Magee
        9.Joe Torre
        10.Wally Berger

        Other than a few questionable selections (Cooper, Manley, Pompez), I think the recent Negro Leaugue Committee did a pretty good job. They eliminated all four Negro Leaguers who would have been on this list (Torriente, Suttles, Mackey, and Williard Brown).

        With pitchers, I don't have a long list so I can't just copy them from my top 100, but the first three that come to mind are definitely Gossage, Blyleven, and Lee Smith
        Last edited by 538280; 04-01-2006, 07:23 AM.


        • #5
          Since the question isn't limited to major leaguers or even guys eligible yet for the HOF, my list will go 25 deep to get 10 currently eligible for the HOF. I will omit active players, however.

          1. Sadaharu Oh (Japan)
          2. Masaichi Kaneda (Japan)
          3. Rickey Henderson
          4. Victor Starffin (Japan)
          5. Cal Ripken Jr.
          6. Akihiko Bessho (Japan)
          7. Masaaki Koyama (Japan)
          8. Ron Santo (probably the top man the way the question was meant)
          9. Dick Allen
          10.Kazuhisa Inao (Japan)
          11. Bert Blyleven
          12. Tony Gwynn
          13. Bill Dahlen
          14. Katsuya Nomura (Japan)
          15. Deacon White
          16. Shigeo Nagashima (Japan)
          17. Sherry Magee
          18. Isao Harimoto
          19. Cannonball Dick Redding (Negro Leagues)
          20. Roberto Alomar
          21. Hiromitsu Ochiai (Japan)
          22. Larry Doyle
          23. Paul Hines
          24. Tim Raines
          25. Harry Stovey

          Sosa and/or Palmieiro might make the list if not for steroid questions, and I'd prefer to let that issue die down and let some time pass before making that decision.

          Jim Albright
          Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
          Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
          A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


          • #6
            --Santo easily. He makes the top 5 all time at his position and nobody else in the top 10 at theirs is outside the Hall. This excludes guys not yet eligible. Henderson and Ripken (are top 5 at LF/SS) and possibly Gwynn (top 10 in RF) are more deserving, but I assume they will make it as soon as they come up for election.
            -- Oh I'd like to see inducted, but he and any of the other Japanese players Jim mentions would require a change to the eligibility structure of the Hall of Fame. Its also tough to directly compare them to MLB players in a rating system. Even if Oh was eligible I'd rank him lower at 1B than Santo at 3B FWIW.


            • #7
              1. Ron Santo
              2. Dick Allen
              3. Bert Blyleven
              4. Sherry Magee
              5. Andre Dawson
              6. Albert Belle
              7. Alan Trammell
              8. Tony Oliva

              Not so sure about the order, but IMHO, Santo should go in before any of the above.
              Last edited by rsuriyop; 04-01-2006, 09:30 AM.
              "Age is a question of mind over matter--if you don't mind, it doesn't matter."
              -Satchel Paige


              • #8
                My list starts with Santo. But here are the list of guys I'd probably put in if I could:

                For Sure: Joe Torre, Ted Simmons, Wally Schang
                I'd Consider: Bill Freehan, Thurman Munson, Lance Parrish, Elston Howard, Bob Boone

                First Base
                For Sure: Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez
                I'd Consider: Norm Cash, Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly

                Second Base
                For Sure: Joe Gordon, Bobby Grich, Larry Doyle, Lou Whitaker
                I'd Consider: Willie Randolph, Buddy Myer

                For Sure: Alan Trammell, Bill Dahlen
                I'd Consider: No one really.

                Third Base
                For Sure: Ron Santo, Ken Boyer, Heinie Groh, Darrell Evans, Stan Hack
                I'd Consider: Graig Nettles, Bob Elliot, Sal Bando

                Left Field
                For Sure: Minnie Minoso, Albert Belle, Sherry Magee
                I'd Consider: Bob Johnson, Frank Howard, Jim Rice, Bobby Veach

                Center Field
                For Sure: Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy
                I'd Consider: Jimmy Wynn, Wally Berger, Cesar Cedeno, Fred Lynn, Ginger Beaumont

                Right Field
                For Sure: No one really.
                I'd Consider: Bobby Bonds, Dave Parker, Tony Oliva, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Evans, Ken Singleton, Reggie Smith, Rocky Colavito, Jack Clark

                Starting Pitchers
                For Sure: Bert Blyleven
                I'd Consider: Tons of guys. Too many to list.

                Relief Pitchers
                For Sure: Goose Gossage, Dan Quisenberry
                I'd Consider: Lee Smith, John Wetteland, Tom Henke, Sparky Lyle


                • #9
                  My list

                  1.Jim Rice
                  2.Ron Santo
                  3.Sadahara Oh
                  4.Bert Blyleven
                  5.Gil Hodges
                  6.Andre Dawson
                  7.Jim Kaat
                  8.Minnie Minoso
                  9.Steve Garvey
                  10.Dick Allen
                  11.Tony Oliva
                  12.Bobby Bonds
                  13.Dave Parker
                  14.Jim Torre
                  15.tie Goose Gossage
                  15.tie.Luis Tiant
                  15.tie Ron Guidry


                  • #10
                    Someone should start talling the vote.
                    1st place 10 pts
                    2nd place 9 pts


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leecemark
                      --Santo easily. He makes the top 5 all time at his position and nobody else in the top 10 at theirs is outside the Hall.
                      I think you could make the argument that Joe Gordon is a top 10 all time 2Bman.

                      In my view it's either Gordon or Sherry Magee.

                      By the way: I heard somebody the other day on television mention Magee's name, which was weird enough in and of itself, but they pronounced it the same as Willie McGee's last name. In my opinion, that's not accurate, as Magee is not an Irish, but a French, name, and should probably be pronounced to rhyme with Tommy Agee's name. Anybody know any better than me?

                      Magee's name came up in the context of a discussion on whether or not Larry Walker is a Hall of Famer. One guy said that only three people have ever led their league in BA, OBP, and SLG in a season and not made the Hall, and the other guy noted that two of them were Sherry Magee and George Stone, who, presumably, nobody had ever heard of. I wondered slightly whether they pulled that stat off this site.

                      And also: How on Earth can you consider Santo a top 5 3Bman? Even coming from your point of view, how can he possibly be better than Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Mathews, or Baker?
                      "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                      Sean McAdam,


                      • #12
                        Either Ron Santo or Dick Allen.


                        • #13
                          --He can't be better than Schmidt, Mathews, Brett or Boggs. I suppose I could be persauded Baker belongs ahead of him too, but I've got HR Baker #6 now. Baker may have peaked a little higher, but Santo had a much tougher (perhaps the toughest) league to contende with. Santo's prime and career were a little longer and he was probably a better defender.


                          • #14
                            Eligiable Hitters

                            1. Andre Dawson
                            2. Darrell Evans
                            3. Dave Kingman
                            4. Dale Murphy
                            5. Harold Baines
                            6. Dave Parker
                            7. Vada Pinson
                            8. Dwight Evans
                            9. Rusty Staub
                            10. Jim Rice

                            Eligiable Pitchers

                            1. Bobby Mathews
                            2. Tommy John
                            3. Bert Blyleven
                            4. Tony Mullane
                            5. Jim Kaat
                            6. Jim McCormick
                            7. Gus Weyhing
                            8. Jack Morris
                            9. Jack Quinn
                            10. Dennis Martinez
                            My dream ballpark dimensions
                            LF: 400 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                            RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                            Location....San Diego


                            • #15
                              I have a question for all of you here. The thread titles says "Best player outside the Hall not named Jackson or Rose?". Rose certainly would classify as the best player outside the Hall, but I have a quesition regarading Joe Jackson.

                              Joe Jackson, to me, clearly is NOT the best player not in the HOF, even excluding Rose. Out of my top 10 I posted earlier, I am fairly confident that Santo, Allen, Wynn, and Grich are solidly better than Joe Jackson. I think that Bobby Bonds and Trammell are better than Jackson, though I could see the case otherwise. Bando, might be better than Jackson and as much as I'd like to call him that, I have him just a few spots behind.

                              He's close to the remaining four too, but personally, if he were included in this thread, I'd put him 7th on my list. I'm just interested, where would others put him?


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