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  • Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
    Did you watch any All-Star games? How about the NLCS?

    Post number #1500 of the thread is mine. Sweet!
    Yes, I did, as did the BBWAA members, the vast majority of whom didn't vote for Garvey for the Hall You're referring to an extremely small sample size that suits your belief that Garvey is actually a great player. All Star games are exhibitions. Maybe if there a post-season HoF Garvey might deserve induction, even including his post season accomplishments he isn't close to being worthy of the HoF.
    Last edited by NJRob65; 02-25-2014, 10:59 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Brad Harris View Post
      Someone forgot the immortal George "Highpockets" Kelly, another FOFF selection.
      I was only referring to those players who were ranked among Bill James top 40 first basemen. Kelly was ranked 65th.

      Comment


      • I fully respect that people sincerely believe Garvey doesn't belong in the Hall, but I'm sensing a bit of a mob mentality at this point.

        We're not talking about Ike Davis here -- plenty of reasonable people (including, I dare say, me) think Garvey did enough, narrowly, to get into Cooperstown.

        One might think the quality of the argumentation in Garvey's favor to be of varying quality. Of course it is. So is the argumentation against him. Personally, if I really think poorly of a given post, I'll often ignore it rather than dignify it with a response. A group pile-on, even if provoked, is unseemly.

        Everyone talks about the length of the thread...to me, it's something of a monument to our inability to agree to disagree.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
          No, Steve Garvey does not belong in the HOF. His career numbers are closer to guys like Mickey Vernon than they are to guys like Eddie Murray. He didn't reach 300 homers, just got past 2, 500 hits. Won zero batting titles, zero RBI titles, hit 30+ home runs once. He was a popular and durable player basking in the glow of Hollywood, but he was not Rose, Murray, Stargell, McCovey, Brett, Schmidt, etc. He was a very good player whose HOF candidacy relies as much on media hype (his treatment as a superstar when) than anything else. Would the world end if he were elcted. No. Should he be elected? No.

          Q.E.D.
          Your personal HOF must be much smaller that the actual HOF. And you seem to put a lot of weight on leading the league in a particular category. That's fine, but you give zero points for second place that way. Willie Mays had zero RBI titles, for instance and only batting title and that was at the age of 23. He must have really fallen off after that.


          Having a small HOF is fine, you get no gripes from me. But the HOF is not just populated with 3,000 hits and/or 500 HR guys. It just isn't.
          Your Second Base Coach
          Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
            Your personal HOF must be much smaller that the actual HOF. And you seem to put a lot of weight on leading the league in a particular category. That's fine, but you give zero points for second place that way. Willie Mays had zero RBI titles, for instance and only batting title and that was at the age of 23. He must have really fallen off after that.


            Having a small HOF is fine, you get no gripes from me. But the HOF is not just populated with 3,000 hits and/or 500 HR guys. It just isn't.
            I'm not sure if Mays is the best person to discuss when bringing up league leaders.

            4x SB, 4x HRs, 2 Runs, 5 SLG, 2 OBP, 5 OPS, 6 OPS+ and 3 TB (despite his healthy walk rate).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
              He's 78th all-time in hits. That's good, but he's well short of the 3, 000 it generally takes to make one a top candidate. He's not in the top 100 in RBI. He's also 92nd in Total bases, a stat that pretty much doesn't actually count total bases because it ignores reaching base without getting a hit. Still good, though, but doesn't scream HOFer to me or the great majority of HOF voters regardless of era they received votes.

              He has a lot more playoff defeats that playoff wins, too.
              Huh?

              His teams were 5-0 in the playoffs and 6-0 in playoff series. In the World Series his teams went 1-4. They had 1978 won until Reggie cheated, so I call that a win.
              Your Second Base Coach
              Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                Just among first-basemen, Steve Garvey ranks:

                36th in WAR
                37th in home runs
                8th in hits
                20th in RBI
                23rd in runs
                19th in doubles
                94th in walks
                14th in total bases
                24th in extra-base hits
                28th in batting average (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                82nd in on-base percentage (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                47th in slugging percentage (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                65th in OPS (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                48th in OPS+ (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)

                This was before the 2013 season.
                Where did he rank at the start of the 1987 season?

                Yup…. though so. HOF territory.
                Your Second Base Coach
                Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                Comment


                • If Garvey had a cool nickname like George "High Pockets" Kelly would he be in the HoF?

                  Steve "Ankle Knickers" Garvey plates 2 runners with an RBI double.
                  "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
                    Is this the longest thread in BBF? Or is there another one. This one carries from the beginning of the site til the present day. Quite a feat for Mr. Garvey.
                    If he could not break Gehrig's record, well…
                    Your Second Base Coach
                    Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                      But no player played in a vacuum. His numbers are, as you said and I have said, pretty good. But they don't measure up to players who also played first base around the time Garvey also played.
                      Yeah, it real cost him a ton of All-Star appearances.
                      Your Second Base Coach
                      Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                        I fully respect that people sincerely believe Garvey doesn't belong in the Hall, but I'm sensing a bit of a mob mentality at this point.

                        We're not talking about Ike Davis here -- plenty of reasonable people (including, I dare say, me) think Garvey did enough, narrowly, to get into Cooperstown.

                        One might think the quality of the argumentation in Garvey's favor to be of varying quality. Of course it is. So is the argumentation against him. Personally, if I really think poorly of a given post, I'll often ignore it rather than dignify it with a response. A group pile-on, even if provoked, is unseemly.

                        Everyone talks about the length of the thread...to me, it's something of a monument to our inability to agree to disagree.
                        I actually like this thread - lots of passion both ways. While I don't think he is a HOFer, he isn't so far off that everyone can dismiss him out of hand, like if someone proposed oh, say Ozzie Guillen or Aurelio Rodriquez as a HOFer. He actually requires a bit of thought. Yes, some give it more thought because they have him close to the HOF, but it seems most have him in the 30-50th best spot at 1B. While many wouldn't put him in at that ranking, he at least gets consideration. As with many controversial candidates, passions can rise. This thread is a celebration of all our thoughts and differences in opinion.
                        Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 02-25-2014, 12:56 PM.
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                        • Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                          Retired 1Bmen, not in the HOF, # of seasons of 5.2 WAR or more.
                          Jeff Bagwell - 8
                          Mark McGwire - 6
                          Keith Hernandez - 5
                          Rafael Palmeiro - 4
                          etc….
                          Dan McGann - 1
                          Tommy Tucker - 1
                          John Reilly - 1
                          Steve Garvey - 0
                          Doug Mientkiewicz - 0
                          Casey Kotchman - 0
                          Todd Benzinger - 0
                          I keep looking for WAR on the line score up on the scoreboard and in the newspaper. Is it near the Runs, Hits and RBI?
                          Last edited by Second Base Coach; 02-25-2014, 01:01 PM.
                          Your Second Base Coach
                          Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                            I keep looking for WAR on the line score up on the scoreboard and in the newspaper? Is it near the Runs, Hits and RBI?
                            WAR is used in every serious baseball publication and/or media available.
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NJRob65 View Post
                              Yes, I did, as did the BBWAA members, the vast majority of whom didn't vote for Garvey for the Hall You're referring to an extremely small sample size that suits your belief that Garvey is actually a great player. All Star games are exhibitions. Maybe if there a post-season HoF Garvey might deserve induction, even including his post season accomplishments he isn't close to being worthy of the HoF.
                              The voters thought more of Steve Garvey than Keith Hernandez. Year after year. WAR cannot account for that. I wonder why?

                              And I never said Garvey was a great player. My position is he would have climbed the HOF charts with Jim Rice and Bruce Sutter if not for the PED era that overlapped his time on the ballot.
                              Your Second Base Coach
                              Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by baltimorechop View Post
                                I'm not sure if Mays is the best person to discuss when bringing up league leaders.

                                4x SB, 4x HRs, 2 Runs, 5 SLG, 2 OBP, 5 OPS, 6 OPS+ and 3 TB (despite his healthy walk rate).
                                Or you can admit that there is something to the Grey Ink test. Either way, I am happy.
                                Your Second Base Coach
                                Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                                Comment

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