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  • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    I'm not sure why you blame sabermetrics for Garvey not being elected to the Hall of Fame? The Hall of Fame voters are notoriously anti-sabermetrics, especially more so back in the mid 1990's when Garvey first appeared onto the HoF ballot.
    Convenience.
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    • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
      I'm not sure why you blame sabermetrics for Garvey not being elected to the Hall of Fame? The Hall of Fame voters are notoriously anti-sabermetrics, especially more so back in the mid 1990's when Garvey first appeared onto the HoF ballot.
      Right. He never even got over 42% of the vote from the BBWAA years before the term sabermetrics was even known by hardly anyone. He never even got close to the HOF via the traditionalist writers.
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      • Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
        Right. He never even got over 42% of the vote from the BBWAA years before the term sabermetrics was even known by hardly anyone. He never even got close to the HOF via the traditionalist writers.
        Even taking his numbers at face value, he really only had 6-7 years. 74-80 he was a reliable .300 200 hit 100 RBI guy. He seemed to go out of the limelight with the Padres other than that great playoff, or was it last two games, against the Cubs in 1984.

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        • Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
          Even taking his numbers at face value, he really only had 6-7 years. 74-80 he was a reliable .300 200 hit 100 RBI guy. He seemed to go out of the limelight with the Padres other than that great playoff, or was it last two games, against the Cubs in 1984.
          They had to get to the playoffs. Remember San Diego was an awful hitters park.

          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
          No milestones at a time milestones were both cherished an achievable. .
          Garvey was the 1974 NL MVP, ten-time All-Star, and holds the National League record for consecutive games played (1,207). A home plate collision stopped the streak or he may have beaten Ripken to Gehrig. He is a 2X NLCS MVP and a 2X All-Star MVP. He is 4X Gold Glove winner. He won the Roberto Clemente Award (1981) and the Lou Gehrig Memorial Award (1984). He played on a World Championship team. Only 15 players, including Garvey, in all of Major League Baseball history have had six or more 200 hit seasons. I’d say that’s more milestones than many HOFers.

          Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
          Garvey does best Fairly in WAR, 34 to 31, but it's arguable that Fairly was Garvey's equal, if not the better, after Hodges.
          A statistic that would rate Ron Fairly equal to or better than Garvey, should be re-examined for it's merit. Thanks for reinforcing my point about sabermetrics.

          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
          Convenience. (blaming sabermetrics for Garvey not getting in the HOF)
          Whatever, but I had to respond to a point made on another thread about Garvey, That point was, “He also was a consistent 100 RBI man mostly because of that lack of patience,” That implies that anyone who swings the bat enough can bat in 100 runs, or even worse that batting in 100 runs is something negative. That is just sabernerdism gone wild. Plus, someone has to be the devil’s advocate on these things. Otherwise, we just evaluate players, using one stat, whether it be War or OPS+. We need to look at the entirety of a player’s career; awards, post season performance, and a VARIETY of statistical resources.
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          • For some reason I read the thread title as 'Steve Harvey"

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            • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
              They had to get to the playoffs. Remember San Diego was an awful hitters park.



              Garvey was the 1974 NL MVP, ten-time All-Star, and holds the National League record for consecutive games played (1,207). A home plate collision stopped the streak or he may have beaten Ripken to Gehrig. He is a 2X NLCS MVP and a 2X All-Star MVP. He is 4X Gold Glove winner. He won the Roberto Clemente Award (1981) and the Lou Gehrig Memorial Award (1984). He played on a World Championship team. Only 15 players, including Garvey, in all of Major League Baseball history have had six or more 200 hit seasons. I’d say that’s more milestones than many HOFers.



              A statistic that would rate Ron Fairly equal to or better than Garvey, should be re-examined for it's merit. Thanks for reinforcing my point about sabermetrics.



              Whatever, but I had to respond to a point made on another thread about Garvey, That point was, “He also was a consistent 100 RBI man mostly because of that lack of patience,” That implies that anyone who swings the bat enough can bat in 100 runs, or even worse that batting in 100 runs is something negative. That is just sabernerdism gone wild. Plus, someone has to be the devil’s advocate on these things. Otherwise, we just evaluate players, using one stat, whether it be War or OPS+. We need to look at the entirety of a player’s career; awards, post season performance, and a VARIETY of statistical resources.
              JR, buddy, can you show how sabermetrics actually caused Garvey not to be inducted to the HoF? Like I posted before the HoF voters have been historically non-sabermetric in their thinking especially more so back when Garvey first appeared on the HoF ballot. Garvey has the same problem as Dale Murphy in that he didn't age well which prevented him from reaching significant career milestones. I'm more supportive of Murphy than I am of Garvey because Murphy played a key defensive position and he played it well.
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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              • Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                For some reason I read the thread title as 'Steve Harvey"
                Probably has more discipline than Garvey...

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                • Last word for me on Garvey- Hodges was a better player, and was also a manager. If Hodges doesn't belong in, Garvey certainly doesn't.

                  Mind you, I'd love to see them both in. But I'm a Dodger guy through-and-through. I'd love to see Jim Gilliam in.
                  Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

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                  • Originally posted by toomanyhatz View Post
                    Last word for me on Garvey- Hodges was a better player, and was also a manager. If Hodges doesn't belong in, Garvey certainly doesn't.

                    Mind you, I'd love to see them both in. But I'm a Dodger guy through-and-through. I'd love to see Jim Gilliam in.
                    Ron Cey, too?
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                    • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                      A statistic that would rate Ron Fairly equal to or better than Garvey, should be re-examined for it's merit. Thanks for reinforcing my point about sabermetrics.
                      On the contrary, a stat that sees beneath the surface to recognize Fairly's ability despite Garvey's glamour stats has a lot going for it. Its dismissal by one who sees Garvey as a slam dunk Hall of Famer is one more of them. Tu quoque, I thank YOU.
                      Whatever, but I had to respond to a point made on another thread about Garvey, That point was, “He also was a consistent 100 RBI man mostly because of that lack of patience,”
                      You'll have to speak up. As Conrad Veidt says in Casablanca, "You may find the conversation a trifle one-sided."
                      Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 12-24-2012, 04:24 PM.
                      Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                      • Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
                        Right. He never even got over 42% of the vote from the BBWAA years before the term sabermetrics was even known by hardly anyone. He never even got close to the HOF via the traditionalist writers.
                        Let's not forget first basemen looked like Mark McGwire and Frank Thomas during the time Steve Garvey was on the ballot. That pretty much did him in. Suddenly those 80-90 runs a season and those 90-110 RBI did not looks so hot anymore. His 270 homers were to be half of what the steroid guys were were projecting.
                        Your Second Base Coach
                        Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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                        • Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                          Let's not forget first basemen looked like Mark McGwire and Frank Thomas during the time Steve Garvey was on the ballot. That pretty much did him in. Suddenly those 80-90 runs a season and those 90-110 RBI did not looks so hot anymore. His 270 homers were to be half of what the steroid guys were were projecting.
                          Live by the triple crown stats, die by the triple crown stats. God forbid some SABRE-types try to point out that park- and era-adjustments make them closer than the raw numbers.
                          Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                          • 1992 was one of the most hitting suppressed years in decades. McGwire had yet to hit 50 in a season, and Thomas had just finished his second full season and had yet to hit over 32 homeruns. Palmeiro hadn't hit over 26 homeruns. Fred McGriff was hitting in the 30's and was, but will never sniff the HOF either. The other "everybody though was a HOFer at the time" Don Mattingly was fading fast and on his way to a career that would never get him close to the HOF either.

                            The PED era and era of big HRs had not started. There were no huge, 1B megastars that everybody knew were going to be HOFers at the time, yet in the 1993 HOF ballot, Garvey...the man who "everybody" thought was a HOFer just a few years earlier managed just 41% of the vote.
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                            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

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                            • List the years Garvey was on the HOF ballot. Now choose the inpoint and outpoint of the "Steroid Era".

                              Yeah.... and that is my point. He was hitting 25 homers when 35 might lead the league. He was driving in 110 runs when 120 might lead the league.

                              Twenty-five and 110 looked pretty pale in comparison when voters were looking to move off of that initial 41.6 percent in 1993.

                              How many years did he finish ahead of an eventual HOF inductee? More than half the years he was on the ballot.
                              Your Second Base Coach
                              Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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                              • Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                                List the years Garvey was on the HOF ballot. Now choose the inpoint and outpoint of the "Steroid Era".

                                Yeah.... and that is my point. He was hitting 25 homers when 35 might lead the league. He was driving in 110 runs when 120 might lead the league.

                                Twenty-five and 110 looked pretty pale in comparison when voters were looking to move off of that initial 41.6 percent in 1993.

                                How many years did he finish ahead of an eventual HOF inductee? More than half the years he was on the ballot.
                                Steeeve got less than his share of glory after his career ended, but more while it was going on. On balance, I'd say it came out right. Both his popularity and his subsequent downfall were to a larger extent than most of his own making.

                                He wasn't as good as Gil Hodges or Dolf Camilli, but if the Hall of Fame takes Jake Daubert or Jack Fournier, Garvey ought to go too.
                                Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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