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  • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    But please - unlike the other two, Pierre was not really a good baseball player at all.
    I always liked Pierre. He was great at the things he did. His skill set just wasn't suitable for the era he played in. He would have been a great dead ball player.

    He might have even been a much bigger star in the 1970s...he's pretty much a guy who did everything Omar Moreno did, but better.

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    • Originally posted by Cougar View Post

      I always liked Pierre. He was great at the things he did. His skill set just wasn't suitable for the era he played in. He would have been a great dead ball player.

      He might have even been a much bigger star in the 1970s...he's pretty much a guy who did everything Omar Moreno did, but better.
      Good points all around, Pierre wasn't nearly as valuable as Garvey, but he was much better than the almost replacement level Moreno.
      Tons of value on the base paths and good average/sacrifice hit rate, but he was nearly a zero with the bat otherwise.
      Had good range in the first half of his career, but his arm was always weak, limiting his defensive ceiling to very good rather than outstanding.
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      • Juan Pierre was a fast guy who happened to play baseball. If he ever wants to get to Cooperstown, he needs to book a flight and buy a ticket. Mentioning him in the company of Baines or Garvey is an insult.

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        • Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

          Good points all around, Pierre wasn't nearly as valuable as Garvey, but he was much better than the almost replacement level Moreno.
          Tons of value on the base paths and good average/sacrifice hit rate, but he was nearly a zero with the bat otherwise.
          Had good range in the first half of his career, but his arm was always weak, limiting his defensive ceiling to very good rather than outstanding.

          The thing about Pierre is if he had played during the 60's and 70's and landed on the right team, say the Cubs where nobody is pushing for his spot for a long time, he would have probably played for 20 years and have ended up being the worst HOFer ever. The man had 2217 hits in 13.5 seasons and was on a good pace for 3,000 until the dodgers benched him and the phillies and marlins platooned him (because they finally realized his limited value). Back in the late 60's early 70's there would have been a place for him for entire career. His steals would be even more impressive because you would have no Henderson context (and CS wasn't as big of a deal) and his lack of power would not have been that bad in that era. He would have probably gotten 3,000 hits, 150 3bs and 700 SB's. And this is why advanced stats are important. We know now how little he actually added, but back then he would have checked a lot of boxes.



          "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."

          -Bill James

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          • Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post


            The thing about Pierre is if he had played during the 60's and 70's and landed on the right team, say the Cubs where nobody is pushing for his spot for a long time, he would have probably played for 20 years and have ended up being the worst HOFer ever. The man had 2217 hits in 13.5 seasons and was on a good pace for 3,000 until the dodgers benched him and the phillies and marlins platooned him (because they finally realized his limited value). Back in the late 60's early 70's there would have been a place for him for entire career. His steals would be even more impressive because you would have no Henderson context (and CS wasn't as big of a deal) and his lack of power would not have been that bad in that era. He would have probably gotten 3,000 hits, 150 3bs and 700 SB's. And this is why advanced stats are important. We know now how little he actually added, but back then he would have checked a lot of boxes.


            Yeah, his skill set was somewhat similar to Ichiro.

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            • Originally posted by willshad View Post

              Yeah, his skill set was somewhat similar to Ichiro.
              Juan was the poor man's Ichiro. Their careers mostly overlapped (2001-13) and Ichiro was better than Juan at almost everything. The only things Pierre did better than Ichiro were hit a few more triples and strike out less. Though with Pierre's lower batting average, that meant he hit into a handful more outs.
              46 wins to match last year's total

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              • Originally posted by willshad View Post

                Yeah, his skill set was somewhat similar to Ichiro.
                Yes...if Ichiro became a bleh fielder with a noodle arm, dropped his OB% 10 points and slugg% 40 points and got thrown out on 1/3 of his SB attempts (with 7 league leaderships in CS compared to three in SB).

                A deade ringer for sure. I mean they were both fast guys who hit a lot of singles. The similarities just about stop at that point.
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                • willshad was pretty vague but they do have the same skill set. Ichiro was just way better. If Ichiro had been in the majors his whole career he might have been better than Rickey Henderson. He was certainly a better hitter and defender than Henderson. Probably a better base runner too.
                  "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                  • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                    willshad was pretty vague but they do have the same skill set. Ichiro was just way better. If Ichiro had been in the majors his whole career he might have been better than Rickey Henderson. He was certainly a better hitter and defender than Henderson. Probably a better base runner too.
                    So did Ty Cobb and Rickey Henderson. It's a pretty basic comparison that makes little sense. If one wants to compare him to a guy from another era who is or will be a HOFer, maybe Lou Brock, and even he was a better all around player than Pierre.

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                    • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                      willshad was pretty vague but they do have the same skill set. Ichiro was just way better. If Ichiro had been in the majors his whole career he might have been better than Rickey Henderson. He was certainly a better hitter and defender than Henderson. Probably a better base runner too.
                      I mean both were fast and hit singles.. But Ichiro was a great defender with good base stealing skills and a great arm and occasional pop. Pierre was none of that. They didn't play the same position either. I'd say they have as much not overlapping as they do. But yes, they both hit a lot of singles and ran fast.

                      Guess it really depends.on how one defines "skill set." Either way, I'd tread lightly trying to compare the two too closely in Any way.
                      Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 04-22-2019, 08:48 PM.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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                      • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                        So did Ty Cobb and Rickey Henderson. It's a pretty basic comparison that makes little sense. If one wants to compare him to a guy from another era who is or will be a HOFer, maybe Lou Brock, and even he was a better all around player than Pierre.
                        Well,.at least you'd get the bad fielder part right.
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                        • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                          willshad was pretty vague but they do have the same skill set. Ichiro was just way better. If Ichiro had been in the majors his whole career he might have been better than Rickey Henderson. He was certainly a better hitter and defender than Henderson. Probably a better base runner too.
                          Better fielder for sure, though young Rickey was good.

                          Not sure about baserunning. Have to really get into it for that one.

                          Rickey, of course has a MUCH better OB% and slugged much better too.

                          I don't think full MLB Ichiro is quite ann inner-circle guy like Rickey was.
                          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                          • Interesting that Ichiro brought up in this thread. He and Garvey were actually fairly similar in productivity as hitters (age 27-36), except Garvey had a little more power, hit for a little lower average.

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                            • Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post
                              Interesting that Ichiro brought up in this thread. He and Garvey were actually fairly similar in productivity as hitters (age 27-36), except Garvey had a little more power, hit for a little lower average.
                              Yup. And if Garvey was one of the best baserunning and defensive RF ever, he'd be an easy HOFer too.
                              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                              • Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                                If one wants to compare him to a guy from another era who is or will be a HOFer, maybe Lou Brock, and even he was a better all around player than Pierre.
                                Ah, yes...even Lou Brock, the noted bum.

                                (I'm making a basic point here. Please don't feel compelled to recite the catechism about how awful he was, I'm familiar with it.)

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