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  • Ha! I've been beating the Oliver/Garvey comparison for while now.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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    • Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
      To some degree, that's evidence that authenticity is overrated.....
      Bill James once said "Athletes are heroes. That is their job." He's right, of course, and on more than one level.....Garvey did his job, while active, as a "hero" far better than Hernandez could dream of.
      Hmmm, you raise some very fascinating points. I try not to compare one ballplayer to another when evaluating HOF measure, but it is inevitable when going beyond their raw numbers. Any ballplayer's ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to their teams(s) are every bit as important as statistics to those with a vote, and much of this is wildly subjective. As it should be. Reminds me of what Will Rogers said: "Well, we can't all be heroes; some of us have to sit on the sidewalk and clap as they march by."
      Baseball is a ballet without music. Drama without words ~Ernie Harwell

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
        To some degree, that's evidence that authenticity is overrated.

        I am a sober alcoholic with 29 1/2 years of continuous abstinence as of this writing. I don't particularly like phonies, but we elevate "being real" to a level of virtue that it doesn't deserve.

        Bill James once said "Athletes are heroes. That is their job." He's right, of course, and on more than one level. That was an aspect of life that, while active, Steve Garvey was good at. Steve Garvey modeled the sorts of virtues that lead, in general to successful lives; discipline, hard work, and discretion. However unfortunate his adultery may have been, he had the decency to keep it as secret as he could, and while it would have been far better all around if he had not slept around and fathered children out of wedlock, he at least had enough shame not to make a virtue out of it. I can't say that of every jock that ever laced up a pair of spikes, cleats, sneakers, or skates.

        Keith Hernandez was a drug addict. He began use of a substance knowing that it was illegal, and knowing that its use was potentially deadly. He ended up being exposed as part of a cadre of players testifying in a drug trial against the Pirates' drug dealer, Curtis
        Strong. He testified honestly, but his behavior resulted in being exposed in criminal activity, even though he was never charged. He was traded from a Cardinal team after a respected manager referred to him as a "cancer" on the team; that's pretty strong language, and Herzog never backed off of those words.

        I'm a sober alcoholic, but I'm also the father of an 8 year old. I'm 56, so I may be a bit old school on this subject, but I would prefer a discreet phony like Garvey to a guy who is "real" enough to end up on the receiving end of a criminal subpoena while still active. Garvey did his job, while active, as a "hero" far better than Hernandez could dream of.

        Well said. Agreed.
        To quote Edwin Starr "WAR, huh, yeah..What is it good for? Absolutely nothing. Say it again, y'all"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
          I would like to read his book, what is the title and ISBN so I can look it up online? Of course autobiographies and biographies in general are not really great historical sources, but they are still very interesting to get the viewpoint of the individual during the time being explored. However, many do seem to twist some of their actions or motivations for doing things to suit the hindsight available while writing, but it is still fun to read them. And like I said about a hundred pages or so ago in this thread (what was that, a week ago...) I grew up with Steve Garvey as one of my favorite players. He actually held that personal title for a year or two, I think between Carl Yastrzemski and Tim Raines if I remember right 30 some years later!

          Anyway, I'd appreciate the info on the book, Second Base Coach, if you have it handy that is. Thanks!

          Another poster mentioned "My Bat Boy Days". I have not read that book.

          The one I have is just titled "Garvey" and has a picture of him in a Padre Uniform on the front and him in a tux on the back. Skip Rozin is the co-author. If you do a google search under images you will see it clearly. His arms are folded as he holds a bat.

          ISBN-13: 978-0812912722
          Your Second Base Coach
          Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
            I'll agree with this, although Garvey is less of a C candidate than Hernandez.

            It's interesting, though. Hernandez, who is considered by most people now to be superior to Garvey was traded from a pennant-winning team because his manager, Whitey Herzog, thought he had become a "cancer" on the team. Subseqently, Hernandez's cocaine addiction and related activities came to light. Yet Hernandez's reputation never suffered as Garvey's has, and Hernandez's activities, one can reasonably conclude, negatively impacted both his own play and the teams he played on. Garvey, however grating his rep may have been, kept himself in top physical shape and hustled on the field. Dave Parker, Keith Hernandez, and Steve Garvey were all guys headed for the HOF who didn't make it, yet the drug users get a pass in terms of image, while Garvey gets trashed and ridiculed.
            I agree that the cokeheads have gotten a pass. People forget that coke was fashionable in the 80s and there was even a mythological belief that coke had no physical side effects. It has never ceased to amaze me that folks here at BBF who denigrate Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez for their purported steroid/PED use think that an illegal under all circumstances drug that lessens performance is OK. (Steroids are legal when prescribed).

            Having said that Garvey was regarded as "close to great' among the fans I knew during his heyday.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
              Yes, yes he is. No, no he wasn't. Probably not. I give JR a lot of credit.

              RMB's main point was his second sentence. He's right.
              "Racialism" was the phrase use at the start of the 20th. Century.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Steven Gallanter View Post
                "Racialism" was the phrase use at the start of the 20th. Century.
                Ah. So it changed when the prevailing attitude changed?
                Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                Comment


                • Happy Birthday to my favorite baseball player, Steve Garvey. I met Mr. Clean at the Little League Baseball World Series here in Williamsport a few years ago. I still cannot believe I did not get a photograph. But I did get one with Dickie V. one year. So the Second Base Coach will share that one with you.:

                  DVJGLLWS.jpg
                  Your Second Base Coach
                  Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                  Comment


                  • Well here we are, my 2,000th post! I had a tough decision to make as to where to place it. I picked this one.

                    And on the eve of the latest HOF ballot coming out. Once again we will hear a list of names and I am sure they are all deserving of election. It will be nice to have a somewhat large class of living people to celebrate.

                    Steve Garvey will not be among those elected and that is a shame. I know he it not everyone's idea of an ideal ballplayer but given his time and place meaning his home ballparks and his particular era, he was very effective in putting runs on the scoreboard preventing base runners in the field and helping his team win pennants.

                    If effectiveness was a stat, that would not be one to hold against him. I think he was better than a lot of people believe and in that grey area of about 200 ballplayers who we really aren't sure were good enough to be Hall of Famers. If you wanted a bigger membership, I think he gets in. If you wanted to keep him out because the Hall would be too big, then I can give you a list of thirty players who would not make it today if they were put up for election.

                    But once you are in you are in. That's terrific. Kudos to those who are about to join the club and congratulations to me for making it to 2,000 posts without being banned for performance enhancers.
                    Last edited by Second Base Coach; 12-30-2013, 08:01 PM.
                    Your Second Base Coach
                    Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

                    Comment


                    • Jesus Christ not this again.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • Steve Garvey, baby!!

                        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                        Comment


                        • Just among first-basemen, Steve Garvey ranks:

                          36th in WAR
                          37th in home runs
                          8th in hits
                          20th in RBI
                          23rd in runs
                          19th in doubles
                          94th in walks
                          14th in total bases
                          24th in extra-base hits
                          28th in batting average (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                          82nd in on-base percentage (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                          47th in slugging percentage (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                          65th in OPS (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                          48th in OPS+ (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)

                          This was before the 2013 season, so he only could have moved down.
                          My top 10 players:

                          1. Babe Ruth
                          2. Barry Bonds
                          3. Ty Cobb
                          4. Ted Williams
                          5. Willie Mays
                          6. Alex Rodriguez
                          7. Hank Aaron
                          8. Honus Wagner
                          9. Lou Gehrig
                          10. Mickey Mantle

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                            Just among first-basemen, Steve Garvey ranks:

                            36th in WAR
                            37th in home runs
                            8th in hits
                            20th in RBI
                            23rd in runs
                            19th in doubles
                            94th in walks
                            14th in total bases
                            24th in extra-base hits
                            28th in batting average (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                            82nd in on-base percentage (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                            47th in slugging percentage (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                            65th in OPS (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)
                            48th in OPS+ (min. 5,000 PA, only including retired players)

                            This was before the 2013 season, so he only could have moved down.
                            But where would this photo rank, though?

                            Garvey 1.jpg
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                              But where would this photo rank, though?

                              [ATTACH]133078[/ATTACH]
                              Nettles, Garvey, and skinny Gwynn, wearing fast food brown!

                              I love the 80's!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                                Nettles, Garvey, and skinny Gwynn, wearing fast food brown!

                                I love the 80's!
                                And I believe the other player is Terry Kennedy. I love 1980's baseball!
                                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                                Comment

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