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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post

    It's interesting how sometimes an early career 'future HOFer' tag will stick for a long time. Some guys who peak early and also decline early don't lose much status (think Griffey Jr, Rice, or F Thomas) while others fall out of favor. Garvey is kind of in the middle, he peaked early, at one point was seen as an easy future HOFer but is still seen as something of a borderline guy. Contrast to someone like Al Oliver, who looks similar career-wise but wasn't seen as a HOfer while active and peaked late. He is still seen as far behind Garv.

    I think the general consensus is that it's good to peak late, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
    The moniker USUALLY sticks once repeated enough. There are occasional Garveys or Mattinglys...but not many.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Let's not forget that Garvey also came along during a historically weak point for fist basemen, especially in the NL. For most of his prime, he was far and above the rest of the guys at his position. I think this helped a lot in his perception as a huge star.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    I agree. Baseball is a family sport.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    Peter O'Malley's sons (Kevin and Brian) and two nephews (Peter and Tom Seidler) are minority owners in the San Diego Padres.

    Peter, himself, no longer owns or works for the Dodgers, but stepped in and rescued the Dodgertown complex at Vero Beach after the Dodgers (under Frank McCourt's ownership) abandoned the facility. Thanks to O'Malley's efforts (which include his sister, Hideo Nomo and Chan Ho Park as partners), "Historic Dodgertown" (as it's now called) has been salvaged and designated a national historic landmark.

    O'Malley will turn 82 next month, incidentally.
    So the family is still in the game, more or less. That's a good thing, I believe, with apologies to old folks with Brooklyn roots.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    My recollection is in accord with this. The scandals really took the legs out of Garvey's support.

    For what it's worth, I would bet a situation similar to Garvey's in 2019 would scarcely register with the press & the public. Society has changed quite a bit.

    Although, if such a situation today involved someone with the "Boy Scout" reputation that Garvey had and actively cultivated, it probably would make a splash.

    Nothing draws the concentrated scorn of the American media more than hypocrisy.
    If anything it would be much more magnified now with social media taking over. Imagine if a modern 'boy scout' guy like Mike Trout was in some kind of scandal, it would be the end of his chance at the HOF, and his case will be much stronger than Garvey's.

    Nowadays not not only is every little thing magnified, but society is much quicker to be 'offended' and make someone an outcast for things that in the past wouldn't be a big deal. For instance, Roseanne Barr's career was basically ruined by a single joking, misunderstood tweet. Back in the 70s Don Rickles literally went to Dodger Stadium and made insulting jokes against blacks, Hispanics, and gays. People thought it was funny. Quite a difference now as opposed to then.
    Last edited by willshad; 11-07-2019, 03:10 PM.

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  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    He also looked on-pace for 3,000 hits and 1,500 RBIs and several other "automatic milestones" at the time. Hitting well-over .300 for his career looked very likely. His hit totals, BA, and RBI totals dropped-off big-time at age 31 or so and he never got close to those two milestones or ANY major milestones, for that matter.

    So he ends-up being a decentish defensive 1B who had no milestones, no league leaderships in anything of note except for hits (2x), mediocre (for a 1B) career slugging and OB%, and lowish sabermetric stats.

    And we wonder why is went 0/27 in potential HOF votes? Yes - like Mattingly and Hershiser, and Gooden, he was given the FHOFEr moniker at one point. But wise people do change their minds when things change.

    Everyone acknowledges already he was a big star. Nobody has ever disputed that. What is disputed is if that is enough to warrant a HOF case when all of the traditional numbers, analytical numbers, and almost 3 decades worth of thousand of people voting suggest otherwise.
    It's interesting how sometimes an early career 'future HOFer' tag will stick for a long time. Some guys who peak early and also decline early don't lose much status (think Griffey Jr, Rice, or F Thomas) while others fall out of favor. Garvey is kind of in the middle, he peaked early, at one point was seen as an easy future HOFer but is still seen as something of a borderline guy. Contrast to someone like Al Oliver, who looks similar career-wise but wasn't seen as a HOfer while active and peaked late. He is still seen as far behind Garv.

    I think the general consensus is that it's good to peak late, but sometimes I'm not so sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
    A wonderful article that illustrates well that there was steel in the Boy Scout's spine, and empathy in his heart, whatever his other human flaws.

    I don't know if Peter O'Malley, or any of the O'Malley family, is still involved in MLB in any capacity. Anyone else have any information about this?

    Tom Lasorda is past 90 now; I don't know the state of his health specifically, but in general people that age will avoid cross-country trips, especially to relatively remote locations like Cooperstown.

    (I don't live far from Cooperstown; long story short, it's about three hours minimum from any major airport, so plane travel is a pain in the hindquarters. Smaller regional airports in Albany, Syracuse, or Binghamton get one around within 75-90 minutes away.)

    I can't think off the top of my head of any living HOFers with Dodgers or Padres ties to Garvey's era who are likely to be in the room, other than maybe Don Sutton, which is unlikely to help Garvey's cause. (Could help Tommy John, perhaps.) I could be blanking on someone.

    Edit: Vin Scully? Same age issue as Lasorda, but he's been active/visible more recently.
    Geez just because someone is old that doesn't mean they are unable to take a trip lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Peter O'Malley's sons (Kevin and Brian) and two nephews (Peter and Tom Seidler) are minority owners in the San Diego Padres.

    Peter, himself, no longer owns or works for the Dodgers, but stepped in and rescued the Dodgertown complex at Vero Beach after the Dodgers (under Frank McCourt's ownership) abandoned the facility. Thanks to O'Malley's efforts (which include his sister, Hideo Nomo and Chan Ho Park as partners), "Historic Dodgertown" (as it's now called) has been salvaged and designated a national historic landmark.

    O'Malley will turn 82 next month, incidentally.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    A wonderful article that illustrates well that there was steel in the Boy Scout's spine, and empathy in his heart, whatever his other human flaws.

    I don't know if Peter O'Malley, or any of the O'Malley family, is still involved in MLB in any capacity. Anyone else have any information about this?

    Tom Lasorda is past 90 now; I don't know the state of his health specifically, but in general people that age will avoid cross-country trips, especially to relatively remote locations like Cooperstown.

    (I don't live far from Cooperstown; long story short, it's about three hours minimum from any major airport, so plane travel is a pain in the hindquarters. Smaller regional airports in Albany, Syracuse, or Binghamton get one within about 75-90 minutes away.)

    I can't think off the top of my head of any living HOFers with Dodgers or Padres ties to Garvey's era who are likely to be in the room, other than maybe Don Sutton, which is unlikely to help Garvey's cause. (Could help Tommy John, perhaps.) I could be blanking on someone.

    Edit: Vin Scully? Same age issue as Lasorda, but he's been active/visible more recently.
    Last edited by Cougar; 11-07-2019, 03:04 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Toledo Inquisition
    replied
    Interesting article here:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/barrymb.../#22f55ea726c2


    Steve Garvey is again in the mix to be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

    He’s back on the Modern Era committee ballot along with eight other players and Marvin Miller, the union leader who fought for the players to earn every bit of the money they make today.

    For Garvey, it’s his fourth time since 2010 on various iterations of the era committees, that after 15 years on the ballot filed every December by eligible members of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America.

    It never gets old, Garvey told Boomskie on Baseball when reached by phone the other day.

    “I always feel honored to be on the ballot,” he said. “If you’re on it, you have a chance. You hope that you’re going to get the right mix of people, who have done their diligence and look at all the components of a career, and then it all adds up to Hall of Fame entry.”

    But the stark reality is this:

    Garvey has never come close to election. He topped out at 42.6% in his third year on the writers’ ballot and then dwindled to 21.1% in 2007, his final year of eligibility. A candidate needs to be named on 75% of the BBWAA ballots to be elected and writers are restricted each year to voting for just 10 players.

    In his four shots examined by the 16-member Expansion and Modern Era committees, he never received as many as eight votes. In the committee format, a candidate needs to be named on 12 of the 16 ballots.

    It’s a tough standard with each ballot limited to just five names. That restricts the electorate to just 80 votes, which means that a maximum of six of the 10 candidates in a given year can be elected.

    That never happens.

    In Garvey’s time on these committees, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Joe Torre, Bobby Cox, Jack Morris and Alan Trammel have all been elected and subsequently inducted into the Hall, Trammel and Morris as recently as two year ago. That’s six of the 40 candidates.

    What will make it different for Garvey this time around?

    He’s on a ballot that includes a number of very good candidates being given yet another bite of the Hall of Fame apple. Aside from Garvey and Miller are Dwight Evans, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons and Lou Whitaker.

    The announcement of any electees is slated for Dec. 8 on the first day of the Winter Meetings in San Diego.

    I’ve been a Hall of Fame voter since 1992, and frankly I’d be comfortable with any of them getting in.

    I’m not on this committee and don’t get a vote, but here’s my pecking order if I was: Garvey, Miller, Munson, Simmons and John would be my five.

    I voted for Garvey all 15 years he was on our ballot and for the life of me never understood the reticence of my cohort about a guy who set durability records, won major awards, and excelled on 10 National League All Star teams.

    But most of all, as the games became more important, he rose to the occasion. His home run off Chicago Cubs closer Lee Smith in the bottom of the ninth of Game 4 of the 1984 NL Championship Series is still the greatest moment in San Diego sports history. It set up the San Diego Padres to win their first pennant the next day at what was then called Jack Murphy Stadium.

    The homer and the win put the Padres and San Diego on the map.

    I was in the clubhouse and covered most of Garvey’s 19-year career, including his last five with the Padres when I was one of the beat writers covering the team.

    Every day he stood by his locker when the results were either good or bad, and made himself available to the media. A lot of his teammates despised him for it, but he was pure gold for any writer, which made the constant BBWAA dismissals even more baffling.

    A young Tony Gwynn watched him very closely and did the same thing for the remainder of his career, the go-to guy for the media long after the Garv was gone, and Gwynn took the same kind of internal flack.

    During the 1984 season, because of the critical nature of my coverage for the San Diego Tribune, an afternoon paper that had to have some bite, the Padres voted 24-1 to ban me from the clubhouse. Garvey was the dissenting vote.

    Gwynn later apologized, but Garvey didn’t have to. He told the other guys something about my constitutional right to cover the team any way I wanted even if he wasn’t happy with the coverage.

    They couldn’t ban me, but that was the Padres of Graig Nettles, Goose Gossage, Terry Kennedy and Garry Templeton, a very tough and rowdy group. When most of the players turned their back on me, Garvey stood at his locker and defied them all.

    He did the same thing for eventual 2017 Spink Award winner Claire Smith later that year when a group of Padres tried to bar her from the clubhouse after Game 1 of the NLCS at Wrigley Field. Despite a court order prohibiting any such action, they didn’t want women reporters in the clubhouse.

    Garvey came out outside to talk to Claire, telling her he knew she was upset, “but you still have a job to do.” He precipitated the matter by giving her an interview.

    The next day then Commissioner Peter Ueberroth formally opened the clubhouse to everyone forever.

    I just finished my 44th season covering baseball, and never in my entire career have a seen another player stand up like that for a reporter, let alone two in one season.

    Like Claire, you can call me biased, but I am. Garvey as a player and person is the epitome of what the Hall of Fame is all about.

    A recent prostate cancer survivor, Garvey was also there for me when I had duel bouts with colon cancer a decade ago. Knock on wood, we are both clean. He was there in Cooperstown, N.Y., two summers ago when Smith became the first woman to win the Spink.

    She’s a breast cancer survivor completing the circle that links us all together.

    For Garvey to finally reach the Hall, he’s going to need several advocates on the 16-person committee. I wasn’t in the room last December, but sure as the sun rises in the east, the fact that La Russa and Chicago White Sox chairman Jerry Reinsdorf were on the Today’s Game committee is the reason why Harold Baines overcame all odds and was elected to the Hall. All of them had White Sox’s ties.

    “He just deserved it,” Reinsdorf said last year after the vote. “It was just a shame he didn’t get in sooner than this.”

    The Hall of Fame vote is both subjective and political. Opinions are heated and selections are controversial. These particular committees meet and discuss all the candidates in depth before a private vote is taken. Had I been on this year’s committee I would’ve been one of Garvey’s advocates.

    What he needs is former Los Angeles Dodgers owner Peter O’Malley and manager Tommy Lasorda on the panel. Both are Hall of Famers with deep Dodger roots.

    “Steve Garvey is a Hall of Famer in all ways, as far as I’m concerned,” Lasorda told MLB.com. “He exemplified the words ‘role model,’ he was a great hitter, a great ballplayer.”

    Lasorda managed Garvey in the Dodgers’ minor league system and for the last six of his 14 seasons playing in Los Angeles.

    Who would know better?

    Those two probably won’t be on the committee, thus Garvey will be subjected to the largess of those who may not be as familiar with what he did for the sport tangibly and intangibly.

    He should be elected, but whether it’ll be his last shot of 19 is up to the baseball gods.

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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    I thought it was 12 out of 16.
    I thought it was 12 now. You could be right.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1905 Giants
    replied
    Fame is...weird.

    He doesn't belong in my Hall, but if it was his peak I'd be more than happy to take him for a season.

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    Well, for almost 3 decades most people have disagreed with you. Good thing for you is that just 8/12 people have to agree this year.
    Yep, and one of them is Joe Morgan who uses reasoning like my lovely Ruth comparison.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    Well, for almost 3 decades most people have disagreed with you. Good thing for you is that just 8/12 people have to agree this year.
    I thought it was 12 out of 16.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    My recollection is in accord with this. The scandals really took the legs out of Garvey's support.

    For what it's worth, I would bet a situation similar to Garvey's in 2019 would scarcely register with the press & the public. Society has changed quite a bit.

    Although, if such a situation today involved someone with the "Boy Scout" reputation that Garvey had and actively cultivated, it probably would make a splash.

    Nothing draws the concentrated scorn of the American media more than hypocrisy.
    We will never know exactly which came first. All we know is that forever reason, Garvey has been RESOUNDINGLY rejected by advanced stats, counting stats, and real BBWAA AND VC HOF voters time and time and time and time and time and time again.
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 11-07-2019, 12:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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