International players in Cooperstown?

[jalbright]

I know that we have recently had a thread on this subject in the HOF Discussion section, but this discussion started in the Sadaharu Oh thread in the International section, and we were encouraged to move it out here. I will do minimal editing (just trying to make it make sense, not change any aspect of a poster's position). The discussion began with this:

I do not recognize the logic of Oh's being eligible for the Cooperstown Hall of Fame.

The Hall was not set up to honor anyone around the world. Just the best of American ballplayers. I do not see any relationship between the Negro Leagues and the Japanese Leagues.

The Negro Leagues were organized to rectify the humongous forced exclusion of blacks from the 'National Game'. That omission was the glaring mistake.

If Oh had been born in America, or come here in his youth, and been forcibly excluded, that would have been completely different. As it was, he faced no discrimination, racism, or denial of material benefits. He was recognized as royalty in his entire country, given every possible honor, etc. His material benefits cannot begin to compare to those of Oscar Charleston, who I feel was a MUCH better player, but was allowed to reap only a tiny fraction of the material benefits he was entitled to, if he had been allowed into the MLs.

Putting Oh into the American Hall of Fame would be to correct a mistake that never occurred, at least not that I can see. Is there something important that is invisible to me? I'm open to debate.

Bill Burgess

[jalbright]

To which I replied as follows:

Sigh, not you too, Bill. First off, there's the issue that the majors and Japanese leagues agreed around 1965 to respect each other's reserve clauses. This agreement was maintained even after the McNally arbitration decision permitting free agency in the majors. What it meant was that Japanese teams were given the right to keep their players indefinitely, which they did. There was a loophole that Nomo found, but it took 30 years for someone to find it. Nomo faced significant pressure to not use this loophole, but he was willing to burn his bridges and go to the majors. That's asking a lot. But Oh would have faced even more, because his career was winding down by the time of the McNally decision (1975). He would have had to quit a good paying job, and fight his way through the courts, probably without a job until the fight was over--by which time his skills might well have eroded to make the exercise a Pyrrhic victory from his personal perspective if he wanted to try to play in the majors anywhere near his prime. Even today, Japanese players who enter the Japanese system are tied to their teams for nine years unless the teams agree otherwise. So, the majors were at least complicit in barring Oh from the majors, just because they felt it was good business. You're too much of a player's man to like that too well.

Beyond that, it's a matter of perspective. Is it a good idea for the Hall and baseball to embrace the trend toward gloablization of the game a la the World Baseball Cup? If so, why wouldn't we want to induct those players from other countries who demonstrated skills on a par with legitimate HOFers in Cooperstown? Japanese folks have the money to be tourists--don't you think that if there was a group of half a dozen or more Japanese heroes in Cooperstown, some of those tourists who are baseball fans would visit Cooperstown? So long as the choices are legitimate quality, what's the down side? There's no question that making proper choices is a significant hurdle, but I maintain it is one that can be reasonably well overcome by something called research. If the only down side is that we actually have to think carefully about the choices we are making, so what? Shouldn't we be doing that already? Also, look at the two other signifcant professional team sports in North America that are truly international at this time: basketball and hockey. Both of them induct players who never played a moment in the NHL or NBA. Are they wrong and baseball right? If it's all about the name of the institution ("National Baseball Hall of Fame"), let's be honest and recognize that is a choice that certainly made sense 70 years ago, and if we wish to perpetuate that choice today, so be it--but it's a choice, not something set in stone.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Bill replied with this:

Jim,

You realize you are opening a very LARGE discussion? I admit I haven't given a lot of thought to this issue of whether or not to admit Japanese stars to the Cooperstown Hall of Fame. I did and do vote for them in OUR Hall of Fame.

If we are to consider the larger, admittedly more important issue of Cooperstown, we would need to have a layered, in-depth discussion. That might be a valid issue for a thread of its own.

One topic is what degree of play they are with respect to the American MLs. Another is how deep do we want the inclusion to penetrate. But the most profound issue is whether or not there is a valid, legitimate NEED to put the best Japanese players into the American Hall of Fame.

Did the Japanese players recognize the American game as the superior product? One would assume so, if their players want to come here to make their careers. Are they coming here merely for the greater salaries? Fame? Better competition? All of the above?

You bring up the topic of forcible exclusion, which always galls the heck out of me. But even so, did such exclusion cost them materially? How much? I would think that they were well-paid in Japan, were famous, and didn't suffer that much. But I really don't know. I'm not in a position to debate this issue with any really good knowledge.

But even if we in Fever established a consensus to put the stars of Japanese baseball, there would remain questions of how many, in what manner would we induct them, etc. Look how long it took for the Hall to induct the recent number of Negro Leaguers? And since they were 'here' first, and have suffered from forcible exclusion longer, and still have a small number of worthy candidates still waiting, (Spot Poles, John Beckworth, Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss, Oliver "Ghost" Marcelle, James Jesse "Nip" Winters, William "Dizzy" Dismukes, Charles Islam "C. I." Taylor, Larry Brown, Frank Duncan), how we put in the Japanese is a good question.

What would be the method? The Hall frowns upon simply inducting a large number en masse. So how would we structure such an induction mechanism?

I'm open to discussion, but it would take a really good argument to convince me there is a need, assuming that Japan has their own Baseball Hall of Fame, and I'll bet there is not a single American MLer in there.

Bill Burgess

[jalbright]

To which I answered:

I harbor no illusions that this opens many discussions. To be entirely consistent, if we had decent records for the Cubans who played in Castro's system, we'd have to deal with them to be consistent. But recognize that your position is nothing more than a choice. Beyond that, think about this: don't you have to try to do what I suggest if the majors actually want to woo Japanese fans? Could we really bar the Ichiros of the world because no American teams pursued them when they came out of school and then their Japanese teams held them so long that they couldn't amass a traditional major league HOF career (which, by the way, is what's happening today)?

If baseball and the Hall want to move to deal with globalization, they will be faced with a stark choice: thumb their noses in a HOF sense toward global fans they want to woo, or find a way to accomodate them. If travel to Japan were to speed up to the point that New York to Tokyo took only five hours in the air like New York to LA does today, don't you think we'd see a push toward either a merger or at least an international "World Series"? How could you do that and still effectively bar the door of Cooperstown? What's wrong with honoring all the greatest professional players in Cooperstown instead of only those who played in North America? My feeling is that with the pace of technological change that you can delay the day when Cooperstown has to face these questions, but the day will come when you have to face them. Baseball, in its inimitable way, may well choose to try to ignore it, just like it tried to ignore the Negro Leagues--but if they do that, it will be obvious to the global audience it supposedly is trying to attract that what they want is your money and the talent they can get (cheaply if possible), but that the major leagues are ambivalent at best about embracing them. Do you think that's wise?

Forget about Japanese players coming here for more money. If they were only interested in the cash, almost all of them left better contracts and/or contract offers at home, basically because major league teams still see these guys as risks. They're coming to compete against the best. Before Nomo, they were well-paid, but not by major league standards. Japanese teams are corporate advertisements, and teams have usually lost money on them if the goodwill from the advertising isn't figured into the equation. But there's a limit to how much those corporations are willing to spend for that kind of advertising. Ballplayers don't get free agency unitl they've been around 9 years--take a wild guess if that depresses salaries for all but the guys who have top-notch major league talent. Arbitration over there is a joke--the teams almost never lose, even if the player has the temerity to try it. How do you think that effects salaries? In fairness, guys who would be AAA players in the states but start in Japan are financially at least as well off because they are far more important over there than they would be here. Of course, when we're talking HOF-caliber players, we're not talking about guys with that kind of talent level. I think it's clear that HOF caliber players have not been paid close to a comparable wage since free agency began in the majors, if not always.

When it comes to who to include, I think the standard is simple: induct only those who demonstrated HOF caliber talent--isn't that what we've sought to do for the Negro Leaguers? If we can do it for them, why can't we do it for the Japanese and/or the Castro Cubans? We'll have to get ahold of good Castro era records to do it, but I'm sure they exist but that the Cuban authorities aren't interested in sharing them right now. But the Japanese have far better records and bases for comparison than the Negro Leaugers ever did. Major leaguers have been a significant presence in Japan back to the late fifties. That's the whole basis of my work on Oh and other Japanese greats. If you read my stuff on Oh, you would have seen that my conversion of Oh's stats was based on over 20,000 matched AB of guys who played in Oh's Central League in his time (1960-80) and who had also played in the majors. I used identical numbers of AB for each player, so that a guy didn't have 100 AB in the majors and 4000 in Japan or vice versa. I also matched the AB as closely in time as possible, so if a guy was in decline in the majors and went to Japan, those last years were the first ones to count because they best represented his talent level at the time of the switch. Even so, there is one bias I couldn't eliminate: the Japanese group is older because in almost every case, the guy went from the majors to Japan and not vice versa. What my numbers represent is the same exact player's results in the majors followed by his results in Japan, controlled so that the number of AB is the same in each place. With a nice database, you could run numbers crafted to the situation like I did for Oh. Once I got beyond Oh, I had to (with the exception of Oh's teammate for 15 years, Shigeo Nagashima), I relied on overall tendencies. People could refine Japanese park effects, since I didn't have the kind of data to do that. The data is there, all that is missing is somebody with the linguistic skill and the will to use well-established methods to do the work. I am not that person, since my Japanese skills are quite limited. I am convinced we can get a better statistical picture of Japanese players than will ever be possible for Negro Leaguers. Read my articles not only on Oh, but those which try to capture Japanese greats on a major league level. I'd love to have someone evaluate my pitcher evaluation methods, because there I had to pretty much blaze a path of my own. What I did, though, was to combine existing methods, so I think it's reasonable.

As for the Japanese Hall's American HOFers, first of all, who cares whether they've honored them or not? This discussion is about what's best for Cooperstown, not reciprocality. I've evaluated as best I can the greats of Japan, foreign and native, and my conclusion is that, given the brief time most gaijin (foreigners) stay (five years or less) how they have performed,
and the fact one must be retired for 15 years before becoming eligible for the Japanese Hall, they have, if anything, been generous to the gaijin. We'll see if that continues since some high-quality candidates are coming up, if it really matters to this discussion. Lefty O'Doul has been honored there simply for organizing several tours of major leaguers to Japan (though it did inspire the formation of the professional game there). Presently, there's also Horace Wilson who in 1872 introduced the game to Japan, and 2 Hawaiians of Japanese descent, Wally Yonamine and Tadashi Wakabayashi. Randy Bass has come within a couple of votes of election despite playing only six years there, though at a quite high level.

Now that Cooperstown has inducted 18 new Negro Leaguers, there are darned few who are the equals of the best of Japan. There are few if any Negro Leaguers who are no-doubt-about it guys, even Beckwith because of his ridiculously surly behavior.

As for the exact method, it should be by a panel of experts, preferrably an Asian panel and a Caribbean one, with the latter taking all of Central and South American candidates. Really, the two key groups are Japan and Castro's Cuba if we figure the Cuban blackball stars have already been dealt with, though that's a debatable assertion. Personally, I doubt that there's ten players outside of Cuba, blackball and Japan who have demonstrated HOF caliber play. Japan may have 15-25 players, 10 managers, and an unknown number of executives (since this last category is beyond my expertise). I wouldn't be surprised to see Castro's Cuba have 10-20 players, 5-10 managers, and who knows in the other categories, based primarily on about 45 years rather than Japan's 70. Certainly, we need to do more research before we can do this right, but it can be done, at least in the case of Japan. Once we've clarified the picture, if we're not going to do this piecemeal, then we can discuss the exact mechanism. We don't have to do it right away, especially if we make it clear we want to do it right. If we made the commitment to the goal, the research would happen. Right now, guys like me are doing what we do out of love, not the expectation of any tangible results any time soon. Give Japanese fans sight of the goal, and the motivation to do the work will soar.

My own guess is that this issue won't seriously be discussed until Ichiro is inducted, and the Hall realizes from the response of Japanese fans that inducting Japanese players might be good business. I can assure you that while I won't oppose Ichiro if he does anything remotely like what I expect he will do, I will be sure to point out he's not even in the class of Oh as a player.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Bill's reply was:

Jim,

I don't really have a 'position'. I am open to a lot of ideas. But right now, I don't see the need, but that can change, if good ideas are forthcoming.

I have some innovative concepts which might have merit, or not. Instead of embracing the entire Japanese leagues, why not simply put a ML team in Japan? Would that team not attract the best of their leagues? All I want to accomplish is to have their best guys compete in OUR MLs.

I'd love to see our league structure expanded to put a team in Japan, Cuba and Mexico, to attract the best of those talent pools. You know, treat them like the old Negro Leagues and just raid the hell out of them. Suck them dry of their best. After that, what can they do for us? They let McDonald's/Coca Cola in, so why not American MLs?

That would be Yankee ingenuity at its corporate worst. Cherry pick their cream and treat them as minor leagues. Just a staging ground for the real thing. Wouldn't that achieve our goals to globalize baseball?

Just to show how far I'm willing to go to open the floodgates, I still would like to see females allowed into the pro ranks. Even if there were few qualified initially, eventually, some would qualify in the minors and then as bench warmers in the big time.

The first set of challenges is to set the stage by establishing the ground rules. Right now, it is still too hard for Japanese players to come here and make their marks.

I'm with you so far, but there is a world of work to be done to reach the Promised Land.

Bill Burgess

[jalbright]

To which I responded:

Jim,

I don't really have a 'position'. I am open to a lot of ideas. But right now, I don't see the need, but that can change, if good ideas are forthcoming.

Bill Burgess

But, Bill, if you don't see the need and aren't willing to offer even token support for what I advocate, you very much are taking a position, just like those who wanted to keep Negro Leaguers out because they weren't "qualified" because they didn't have major league experience. Some of those folks, like you have no malicious intent, but aligned themselves with the side on the moral low ground. Somehow, it calls to mind the old saw about the road to Hades paved with good intentions. This is one of those you're with me, or even by inaction, you're agin me situations because inaction favors the exclusionist status quo which now has lessened, but at the price of siphoning talent. Choose wisely, my friend.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Bill's response was:

But, Bill, if you don't see the need and aren't willing to offer even token support for what I advocate, you very much are taking a position, just like those who wanted to keep Negro Leaguers out because they weren't "qualified" because they didn't have major league experience.
Jim Albright

Ha ha. Boy you're not giving me any wiggle room. OK. I see your point. If I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem. Fair enough. So, while I at this moment do not see the need to include the Japanese players, you must bear in mind that you are the only person I know of who has brought this issue to the forefront.

I really don't know that much about this issue. I didn't know that it was so hard for Japanese players to come to the US and play here. Let's just say that if I have an unhelpful 'position', I'm not committed to it, and feel flexible to evolve.

But I raised some issues which I thought you might sink your teeth into, but you refused to bite. What would be so controversial about installing a ML team in Japan, Cuba and Mexico? Cuba might have some political complications. Would a ML team in Japan act like a magnet to their best?

Bill

[jalbright]

Ha ha. Boy you're not giving me any wiggle room. OK. I see your point. If I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem. Fair enough. So, while I at this moment do not see the need to include the Japanese players, you must bear in mind that you are the only person I know of who has brought this issue to the forefront.

I really don't know that much about this issue. I didn't know that it was so hard for Japanese players to come to the US and play here. Let's just say that if I have an unhelpful 'position', I'm not committed to it, and feel flexible to evolve.

But I raised some issues which I thought you might sink your teeth into, but you refused to bite. What would be so controversial about installing a ML team in Japan, Cuba and Mexico? Cuba might have some political complications. Would a ML team in Japan act like a magnet to their best?

Bill

You're hardly alone in being part of the problem, and indeed, you're in the group I first need to persuade.

I realize I'm out in front charging at windmills. So be it. It's nice to be sure you're right about something, even if you are in the minorty. If you want more information that doesn't come from me, please read the book The Meaning of Ichiro by Robert Whiting for more details.

I didn't bite because a) it's a side issue to the one we're discussing (namely, Cooperstown), b) politics won't let the Cuba idea happen any time soon, c) I'm not sure there's enough of an economic base to support Mexico or Cuba any time soon, d) what would be the point of only one or two Japanese teams if it did work? e) Japan would need a full division of five or six teams, and f) if those teams don't come in the form of a merger with existing Japanese teams, it would be frozen out in Japan as an American power grab. The Japanese are very good at closing ranks against a perceived threat from outsiders. Truthfully, I think an American power play of that sort would only wind up hurting MLB marketing, things like the World Baseball Cup, MLB tours to Japan, and even in drawing talent from there. So I think that such a power play would be one of the worst moves possible.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

Not to be unduly snide, but what part of NATIONAL Baseball Hall of Fame is unclear?

[jalbright]

There was then a brief exchange between Cubano100% and myself in which Cubano100% indicated that Cuban officials have kept records, and I responded that I was aware of that, but my point was that they haven't been willing to share them, such that we have access to the records of the last few years and to career marks, but not the year by year marks for much of the time of Castro baseball.

My response to Bill's last followed:

Ha ha. Boy you're not giving me any wiggle room. OK. I see your point. If I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem. Fair enough. So, while I at this moment do not see the need to include the Japanese players, you must bear in mind that you are the only person I know of who has brought this issue to the forefront.
Bill

Actually, Bill, numerous people, including Frank Deford of Sports Illustrated and several other baseball columnists have endorsed Oh. I don't know of anyone besides me who's gone further than that. However, you haven't answered one of my key questions: what's the downside of international selections using standards similar to what we've used for Negro Leaugers? It would be wise to make some changes to the official name of Cooperstown, and to change some mission statements and the like of the institution, but those things aren't major issues.

Do you agree that Cooperstown can benefit from reaching out to embrace the trend toward globalizing the game? Do you think that the majors will eventually have more official ties with Japan than at present, either in an international World Series or an eventual merger of some sort? If you do, then the step I'm advocating will be necessary at that time to please the fan base the majors would be wooing. I know that the Hall is officially separate, but it very much wants to please the majors. It would be nice if the Hall moved into the future without being made to do so, but it's safe to say it won't start with any visionary moves from within. Think about it, Bill. If it's inevitable, why not actually plan for it and do it right rather than improvise, which is certainly not one of the Hall's strengths? Even if it's not inevitable, if the move is good for the game and the Hall and doesn't have a significant downside for the Hall, what's not to like?

Another point: if you want more Negro Leaguers in the Hall, you're going to want all the allies you can get. So don't get into the mindset of it's Negro Leaguers or foreign players--it can be both. Both sides can use the support of the other, so why not make common cause?

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

We had a new entrant to the discussion, who posted this:

Do you agree that Cooperstown can benefit from reaching out to embrace the trend toward globalizing the game?

Jim Albright

there is absolutely no disagreement here in that statement - it is the future and it can only make things more exciting

but there is no reason to formally induct individuals into cooperstown who never even played in the u.s. - the game is global but it is also local - each should recognize their own - we are not nor will be the only ones in the courting process - it is not america's sole responsibility to build internatonal recognition of the game - the japanese do not need us to embrace oh, the cubans, koreans, taiwanese, russians, mexicans, etc. do not need us to embrace their heros - they will shine regardless - it is not america's recognition that makes them great or even special - it is how their fans feel about them

what is inevitiable is a shared future - the wbc was exciting and, i think, an eye opener to the quality of play throughout the world - the focus should really be focused on the future - whatever that entails - let's embrace the many faces of the game, study the heros worldwide, gain an understanding of the different aspects of each community and how the game is played and administered - formal enshrinement of individuals with no ties to cooperstown will do little to foster any of this

we here at baseball fever love the history of the game and many of have spent a lifetime studying it - but step back - look around - we represent less than 1% of the population - the future needs to be built for the other 99% - the history studiers are not the future of the sport - the future is and has always been rooted in business and marketing - those principles are what is needed to capture the entertainment dollars in the future not a bunch of book hounds talking about esoteric (to the other 99%) ballplayers

[jalbright]

Bill rejoined the discussion with this:

Another point: if you want more Negro Leaguers in the Hall, you're going to want all the allies you can get. So don't get into the mindset of it's Negro Leaguers or foreign players--it can be both. Both sides can use the support of the other, so why not make common cause?

Jim Albright

Well, you are speaking my mother tongue here, Jim. I see the trend towards globalization too, but the question is how it will be done.

As I see it, there are several possibilities. One is for the present ML structure to expand, and try to install ML franchises into the more promising international markets. Which I identify as Japan, Mexico and Cuba. Possibly Dominican Republic or Venezuela. That is one approach. Has some costs involved with international airline expenses. But the new attendance might easily absorb those new costs.

Another possibility is to expand our present concept of the World Series. We could have an international 'post season'. The winner of the present WS could then go on to play the Cuban Champions, and while we do that, there could be a playoff series between Japan and Mexico. And the 2 winners could then meet in a grand finale series.

That would lead to play all through the month of October, and maybe beyond.

There are no doubt other possibilities that I'm not thinking of at the moment.

The Hall is an extremely political creature. I am not sure of how beholden it is to the MLs. I don't know if they are subsidized heavily or not. If they are, they are completely at their mercy. Getting changes is not easy. If baseball wanted to make things easy on the fans, they would have moved the Hall to a more assessable site, such as Chicago or St. Louis a long time ago, so the cherished treasures of the game could be enjoyed by the masses, not only those willing to go to that hard to get to little town in NY.

Once upon a time, the MLs had the choice of absorbing the Negro League stars, or designating them another ML and competing with them. I think they made the right choice of absorbing them. Made more sense, and was the popular choice.

Whatever direction the MLs decide to go in, will have to be sold to the BB public as popular. Will need a PR campaign, and marketing strategy. The first priority BB will think of is whether or not they can make more money on it or not. And that will depend on if they can sell the idea to the American BB fan sucessfully. The recent World Classic was kinda popular and seems to indicate such a development could be sucessfully marketed. Will the average fan still watch those international series deep into October. I think they would if they were perceived as viable and credibly competitive.

And in that case, I doubt if the US fan would let OUR players be siphoned off and compete for the competition, like they did in the World Classic. I may be off on that, but that's what I think.
Bill Burgess

[jalbright]

Bill followed with this post:

If in 1946, the black community in America had been honestly polled, as to whether or not the Negro Leagues should be absorbed into the white ML structure, or been officially designated another ML, and competed with the white ML structure, with a World Series at the end of each season, I strongly believe the blacks would have chosen integration. And I would have agreed with them. For many reasons.

To remain self-contained, would have perpetuated the separate but equal concept, and done little to force open the portals to white America.

By being absorbed, it fostered major integration of America's glamor markee sport, and served as a showcase for black athletic talent. It led to the integration of hotels, restaurants, public facilities like rest rooms, gas stations, movie theaters, etc. Once the teams were integrated, it led to understanding that can ONLY come from mixing up close and personal. Probably gave white athletes their first glimpse of blacks in a clubhouse setting. Broke the former distorted mould that blacks were 'dirty', messy, unkempt, etc.

In those days, some whites would have been aghast to let their kids swim in pools with blacks. Who knows what they might have passed to the kids?!

So, integration was a key 'battering ram' to opening up the lines of communication, understanding, and compassion born of camaraderie. It's amazing how things change when 2 former competitors are suddenly put on the same side. Brings an entirely new perspective. One wholly unfamiliar, and maybe a little bit feared.

Branch Rickey/Jackie Robinson probably little understood just how deep a penetration into American society/culture they would augur. The wedge, once driven home, can never be removed. A bell can not be unrung. Once you learn something, you can never unlearn it. You're stuck with it. Forever.

And maybe globalization could have such a similar effect on the world. We have already done that a little with so many Hispanic players in the MLs. And its all been to our good. Foreign-born blacks are supplanting home-grown blacks in the dugouts/clubhouses. And they are supplanting white home-grown ballplayers too. The market supports the survival of the athletic fittest.

Whatever brings us closer together should be embraced. It will not disappoint us. International harmony can only bring good things. Like the Olympics have taught us. There is nothing so close as 2 competitors, fighting each other to the bitter end, to make friends for life. That is the enduring value of sports. To bring us closer together.

Bill Burgess

[jalbright]

bkmckenna got back into the action with this:

the major leagues is and probably will be for a long time the macdaddy of the sport - but that doesn't mean international competition needs to center around it - only two major leaguers participated in the wbc finals

it takes a lot - i mean a lot of money to be spent yearly for a community to support major league baseball - there are few, if any, such places with plane travel and appropriate time zone range outside the u.s. to make a viable home - and remember you pay $250 for a tv and $50 for cable to watch those games but it is the advertisers who pick up most of the bill - which advertisers are going to pay billions of dollars to feed games into cuba or wherever?

major league money puts food on the table for a lot of families - it is an established multi-billion $ industry - it cannot adapt as easily as one thinks - nor can it afford to - criticize selig and the game all you want but in the end that multi-billion $ industry has to take care of its own - MLB is a giant and the wbc played in march because that is the only time the giant could afford to allow it to happen - the international game may best be served to work around the giant - since mlb and npb are the only two such giants - it will be the others who will need to bend - in the end the millions of $ paid to mlb and npb professionals forces such

[jalbright]

bkmckenna added this:

If in 1946, the black community in America had been honestly polled, as to whether or not the Negro Leagues should be absorbed into the white ML structure, or been officially designated another ML, and competed with the white ML structure, with a World Series at the end of each season, I strongly believe the blacks would have chosen integration. And I would have agreed with them. For many reasons.

To remain self-contained, would have perpetuated the separate but equal concept, and done little to force open the portals to white America.

By being absorbed, it fostered major integration of America's glamor markee sport, and served as a showcase for black athletic talent. It led to the integration of hotels, restaurants, public facilities like rest rooms, gas stations, movie theaters, etc.
Bill Burgess

this is all true bill but that is not why it happened - there is no collective black community nor was there than - there is no collective white community nor was there than - that is just a point of view that people take when looking back on things historically

hank aaron (or any one of 100s of african-americans) did what was best for hank aaron - was he a member of the black community - yes - was he at the forefront of his community - his job and ability to do it probably made him so - yes - but he entered organized ball for the financial and other benefits that it could provide over and above the negro leagues - he did what was best for himself and his family - does that make him a hero - i don't know - but whatever his conscienceness of his situation - i don't think he saw himself as the leader of the black people - he saw himself as a man - a man who had a job that paid a very nice salary compared to the average american - too many historians (not that you are bill) put too much on individuals that are only evident in hindsight - baseball made hank aaron, not the other way around - he is celebrated today because of his role in playing ball - surely there are others who had less glamorous (or prosperous) roles in the civil rights movement who are ignored today - perhaps many of the parents and grandparents of bbf members for example