Sadaharu Oh!

[justice22]

I've been thinking a lot lately, since the Hall of Fame is the Baseball Hall of Fame, should great players in other leagues be included, specifically Sadaharu Oh. I just don't know

[KCGHOST]

There have been several threads on this. First it is no the International Baseball Hall of Fame. It is the National Baseball Hall of Fame, therefore no. Hell we can't even get the voting right for players we see for 15-20 years and you want us to consider voting for guys we have never laid eyes on?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

There have been several threads on this. First it is no the International Baseball Hall of Fame. It is the National Baseball Hall of Fame, therefore no. Hell we can't even get the voting right for players we see for 15-20 years and you want us to consider voting for guys we have never laid eyes on?

Oh, you mean guys like Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and "Pop" Lloyd? I doubt most of us here at BBF have ever seen these players in person. I think Jim Albright has pretty much debunked the "National" argument as well...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I've been thinking a lot lately, since the Hall of Fame is the Baseball Hall of Fame, should great players in other leagues be included, specifically Sadaharu Oh. I just don't know

Checck out these threads.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41490

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=34003

[Tigerfan1974]

I've been thinking a lot lately, since the Hall of Fame is the Baseball Hall of Fame, should great players in other leagues be included, specifically Sadaharu Oh. I just don't know

I say no also.
It is the NATIONAL Baseball Hall of Fame.

Oh? No!
(Sorry Sadaharu!)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I say no also.
It is the NATIONAL Baseball Hall of Fame.

Oh? No!
(Sorry Sadaharu!)

When will the silly "National" argument ever die?! As Jim Albright correctly pointed out, other than the name, there is no formal rule barring players that didn't play in North America. So people please stop using this silly argument. It has NO MERIT. If "National" is a hang up then simple change the name. The HoF can do that you know. Remember, Negro Leaguers were not eligible for the HoF because "National" meant major leaguers only. But guess what, the HoF changed it's rules. Imagine that. :o

[CoasttoCoast]

Oh, you mean guys like Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and "Pop" Lloyd? I doubt most of us here at BBF have ever seen these players in person. I think Jim Albright has pretty much debunked the "National" argument as well...

"debunked" ? He gave his view.His view is an informed on ebut far from gospel.

I dont think it will ever allow foreign players that never played in the Major Leagues aside from the ones that played in the Negro Leagues.

I just hope the Hall of Fame never goes the way of the Basketball Hall of Fame and allows every Joe Blow from every level to be inducted.The Basketball HOF has now allowed high school coaches in their ranks.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

"debunked" ? He gave his view.His view is an informed on ebut far from gospel.

By "debunked" I mean that the "National" argument being used implies strongly that there are formal rules against inducting Japanese players. No such rules exist.

I dont think it will ever allow foreign players that never played in the Major Leagues aside from the ones that played in the Negro Leagues.

I hope that's not true but it will be many years befiore it can possibly happen. Ichiro is the key person in this possbile change.

I just hope the Hall of Fame never goes the way of the Basketball Hall of Fame and allows every Joe Blow from every level to be inducted.The Basketball HOF has now allowed high school coaches in their ranks.

No one is arguing this for baseball. Japanese baseball is not high school level baaeball. Didn't Japan just win the WBC? :o

But the simple question I asked was this, "Would inducting Sadaharu Oh diminish or enhance the Baseball HoF?"

[NeverJustAGame]

What next minor leaguers?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What next minor leaguers?

Non-sequtir. Minor leaguers have nothing to do with the issue of Japanese players.

[justice22]

What next minor leaguers?

nice use of a fallacious argument though! i've taken 2 logic classes and that's a good example of the red herring and the slippery slope. i have to write this one down!

but that's off topic as well. First of all, I'm new to the forum, so i don't know what we've discussed, so i may be repeating someone. The only argument that is even possibly justified is the idea that since itis the National BBHOF that no one else should be included, but that theory has basically been debunked. If one is to say the quality of the Japanese leagues is lower then ours, again, that would be a mistake, just look at the WBC. Obviously, Oh dominated his league in a greater fashion then anyone else. Even IF the Japanese leagues are of minorly worse quality, shouldn't he still be considered one of the greats.

I do agree wtih whomever said they hope our hof doesn't end up like basketball. They are seriously depressing...

[KCGHOST]

I think Jim Albright has pretty much debunked the "National" argument as well...

Jim Albright has debunked nothing. Someone saying something you agree with doesn't make them right.

The mentioning of the Negro Leaguers is ridiculous. Are seriously trying to imply we should let the International players in because we let the Negro Leaguers in??? The NLers are in because of our collective guilt of the terrible discrimination they suffered at our hands.

Everytime the pro-international admittance parties hear an argument they come back with some goofy flip answer, but think their flim-flam is written in stone. Japanese baseball, while enthusiastically played, is minor league ball. They are at best AAA and we aren't about to include our own minor leaguers. Oh that's right thats a non sequitur. The fact that some players from Japan can make good in the majors is no different than guys making it out of AAA ball. Bring the average Japanese player over here and he will never be heard from again. When their average equals ours then you might have an argument they are a major league.

Why do you think the Japanese limit the number of players from America who can play there?? They know what would happen. Look at the goobers we have sent over there who have been dominant players.

Better yet, call up the Japanese and ask how come Henry Aaron isn't in their HoF?? And the only American in their HoF, Lefty O'Doul, is honored for his work in Japan not for what he did here. And that is a good policy. If you want in something, earn it.

[jalbright]

nice use of a fallacious argument though! i've taken 2 logic classes and that's a good example of the red herring and the slippery slope. i have to write this one down!

but that's off topic as well. First of all, I'm new to the forum, so i don't know what we've discussed, so i may be repeating someone. The only argument that is even possibly justified is the idea that since itis the National BBHOF that no one else should be included, but that theory has basically been debunked. If one is to say the quality of the Japanese leagues is lower then ours, again, that would be a mistake, just look at the WBC. Obviously, Oh dominated his league in a greater fashion then anyone else. Even IF the Japanese leagues are of minorly worse quality, shouldn't he still be considered one of the greats.

I do agree wtih whomever said they hope our hof doesn't end up like basketball. They are seriously depressing...

Well, since I've studied Japanese ball extensively, I can't quite agree that on average it's as good as the majors. If it were, my downgrades of the stats of recent Japanese players moving to the majors wouldn't work as well as they do. Similarly, I wouldn't have had the same kinds of adjustments for Oh's day. That said, the very best of Japan have been at least competitive with the best of the majors for some time IMO. Some of the very best of Japan have in fact been HOF quality. Many major league types who saw Oh play thought he was such a person, and the stats support that. I won't reiterate the points made in other threads which are active--there's enough there to chew on, and I get tired of repeating myself every couple of months, much less every couple of threads. I've got to draw the line somewhere.

Jim Albright

[Fuzzy Bear]

When will the silly "National" argument ever die?! As Jim Albright correctly pointed out, other than the name, there is no formal rule barring players that didn't play in North America. So people please stop using this silly argument. It has NO MERIT. If "National" is a hang up then simple change the name. The HoF can do that you know. Remember, Negro Leaguers were not eligible for the HoF because "National" meant major leaguers only. But guess what, the HoF changed it's rules. Imagine that. :o

Negro Leaguers were Americans, and the Negro Leagues were, truly, major leagues in quality of players, even if they were not as well organized as MLB.

This is hard because Sadaharu Oh belongs in the HOF, and he was a truly great player. The Japanese Leagues are major leagues, although they may not be quite at the level of MLB. But I don't want to open the floodgates and induct Tuffy Rhodes and Randy Bass, either.

[jalbright]

Negro Leaguers were Americans, and the Negro Leagues were, truly, major leagues in quality of players, even if they were not as well organized as MLB.

This is hard because Sadaharu Oh belongs in the HOF, and he was a truly great player. The Japanese Leagues are major leagues, although they may not be quite at the level of MLB. But I don't want to open the floodgates and induct Tuffy Rhodes and Randy Bass, either.

The differences between Bass and Rhodes are:
1) they weren't as good as Oh;
2) they weren't excluded from the major leagues for anything other than the perception they didn't produce at an adequate level;
3) even if you count their time in Japan at 100%, they had short careers for HOFers.

The second point is the most critical. Major league baseball made a business agreement with Japanese baseball that each would respect the other's reserve clause, and honored that agreement even after its own reserve clause was invalidated. However, in Japan, the reserve clause remained in effect until the 1990's, and since Japanese teams weren't legally obligated to let players go, didn't want to do so, and the majors were honoring the Japanese reserve clause, Japanese players were effectively excluded from the majors.

Jim Albright